Re: red plastic wine bottle plugs

I got some from Wine-Art way back in the 1960s, perhaps not exactly like yours, and am still using them. They will last till the end of the world.

vince norris

I'm not sure what these "red plastic plugs" are. Can someone fill me in?

Sounds like a synthetic "bar top" which is commonly used in bars for opened bottles of wine. They are also made out of cork with a plastic knurled cap, and at times are referred to as T tops. Is this what we are talking about? John Dixon

Most wine making shops I have seen carry them. I really like the all sythetics that are out there. I open a bottle, use one of these until the bottle is gone, and then throw it in the dishwasher. I have some that are a couple of years old. The cork ones have a bad habit of breaking off the plastic cap after they dry out for a while. I know the Presque Isles carries the cork ones, but I haven't looked anywhere else as I have a supplier. Here's a link to what I am referring to:

Yes. They are far superior to corks, IMO. You will never get a "corked" bottle of wine with them. Or bits of cork in the wine. You'll never hunt all over the house for a corkscrew.

They are less expensive than corks; you can use them a gazillion times. My 40-year-old stoppers stoppers show a little wear and tear, but they work as well as they did 40 years ago

I'll bet I've saved a thousand bucks!

It is a myth that corks are good because they allow the wine to "breathe." YOU DO NOT WANT YOUR WINE TO BREATHE. That's why it turns brown.

(I am quoting two commercial California vintners, both of whom told our chapter of the American Wine society, using almost the same words, "Every California winery would love to switch to plastic screwtops, but everyone is afraid go be first.")

Now that a winery owned by the Gettys has offered for sale a $135 bottle of wine with a screw top, I suspect you'll begin to see other wineries doing it.

Corks have no advantage except tradition and romance. I cork wine that I give to others, because of tradition. I don't cork any I intend to keep.

vince norris

Why do you say that? What would be the disadvantage of using them for long-term use?

vince norris

"Tasting corks" (a.k.a. T-corks, plastic-top corks) are only about one inch long. Wine corks are typically 1.5 or 1.75 inches in length. Supposedly the shorter corks should only be used for short-term storage.

Presque Isle states, "Wines which will be consumed within a year of bottling can be safely sealed with screw caps or Plastic Top Corks. In all other cases the wine cork is preferred."

Grape and Granery states, "We recommend 1.5" corks for wine you plan to drink within a year or two, and the longer corks for wines you plan to age longer than 1-2 years.

I believe the reasoning behind this is that ALL (natural) corks allow a certain amount of "breathing" (transfer of air through the cork) to occur. The shorter corks allow more air transfer than the longer ones. Some breathing is considered beneficial (to the aging process), but too much breathing causes hyperventiliation (oops, I mean oxidation) of the wine.

Whether or not this logic applies to synthetic and/or plastic corks is debatable. It is my understanding that synthetics do NOT allow ANY breathing (which is one argument against their usage in young wine, since further aging will be curtailed, but then the same argument should apply to the use of rubber stoppers in glass carboys).

I assume that the plastic caps do not allow any breathing --- and do not deteriorate with age. The question is whether or not they provide as good a seal as the softer (and more supple) cork to begin with. I would also worry about whether washing them in a dishwasher and re-using them introduces any distortion, which might affect their ability to seal properly.

I don't know why Presque Isle says screw-tops are unsuitable for long-term storage. The only negative aspect of which I am aware (other than their lack of "traditional" snob value) is that they form to good a seal! If the wine starts fermenting in the bottle, or the room temperature increases more than 10-15 degrees (Farenheit), a cork will pop out. A screw-top bottle will explode.

[This is why I believe the best all-around solution is synthetic corks (and possibly plastic T-corks), with the bottles stored upright --- after bulk aging until the wine is ready to drink.]

I've heard different opinions. Some say that no breathing is required in the bottle, and some have said that a small amount is. If fermentation is complete before bottling, and if the wine is properly degassed, either by stirring or a vacuum, then does the wine produce any gas while in the bottle? It might be beneficial to allow such gas to slowly escape... as well as the pressure introduced by forcing the cork in, however, I have no idea if it makes any difference.

I had a couple of the plastic stoppers pop out of some recently bottled wine, which may mean that I didn't degass it well enough, even though I stirred it quite a bit... some bottles I closed with real and some with plastic cork. Those bottles I reclosed and placed separately for early consumption, or the drain, depending on the result.

I'm not talking about corks. See my reply to JDixon, above.

I've been buying from Doug Moorhead for about 40 years, and have the highest regard for him. But I disagree with him about screw caps.

As I said a few days ago, I heard two different California vintners say they would love to switch to screw daps, but are afraid to be the first ones to do it. Since then, Getty has done it.

That is one of the WORST properties of cork, and one reason commercial vintners would like to eliminate them.

You do NOT want your wine to breathe in the bottle! That is not my personal opinion, it is what commercial vintners say.

vince norris

Hi Vince

Go to:

The old ones I have are all red but the new ones are called "Red Tops". HTH

Are you referring to the reply where you say "If you imagine something made in the shape of the Presque Isle stopper in the web site you posted, but made of plastic, that's what I'm talking about"?

The "Presque Isle stopper in the web site ... posted" is known (among other designations) as a "tasting cork", whether it is made of natural cork, or plastic. The designation refers to its shape and function. If you had read my entire post, you would see that I discussed natural, synthetic (polymer), and plastic corks, in an attempt to provide the necessary background material to answer your question as fully as possible.

As I pointed out (further on) in my post, I question his reasoning on this point as well, although I can think of (and listed) several other reasons why screw-tops are not the wisest choice.

Just as there are divergent opinions in this news group, there are divergent opinions amongst vintners. For every advocate of natural corks, there are advocates of alternate methods. Each have their pros and cons, and their common "wisdom".

There is much debate amongst commercial vintners, oenologists, and amateur winemakers as to whether "breathing" is a good or bad property. It is certainly not the worst property of (natural) cork --- that would be its propensity to develop "cork taint". There is no consensus amongst commercial vintners that eliminating corks is desireable.

That is what SOME commercial vintners say. Others disagree just as strongly. They both offer convincing arguments.

It seems self-evident to me that if your wine is NOT fully matured when bottled, it will benefit from "breathing". If it is fully matured, breathing will hasten its deterioration. Since few home winemakers have the cellar facilities to bulk age their wines to maturity (which would require 6-10 years supply of barrels and carboys), their wines would probably benefit from corks which "breathe".

That having been said, I still prefer synthetic corks to natural corks, for the reasons stated earlier. The plastic "tasting corks" you describe MIGHT be an acceptable alternative. I would like to see more data on the subject. I would also like to know where I might obtain them, as I have NOT seen them offered at any of the stores or internet sites with which I'm familiar.

I first saw the plastic stoppers at Kraus and I will be ordering some. Thanks to all who responded. My first batch of apple wine is slowing down and settling in the secondary. My second batch, a concord is foaming away in the primary. Such fun...I'm hooked. -Susan

Yes, I have a few of that style, too. I got them at Pike Place Market when I visited Seattle, in 1969! Still using them.

I would be a bit skeptical about using that kind for multi-year storage, though, they don't seem to fit as tight as the others. They go in and out too easily.

The ones I was discussing in earlier posts are more like the ones illustrated just below that "red tops" in that web site.

vince norris

I had never encountered that usage.

I read it, but did not understand what you meant. To me, "plastic cork" refers not to the kind of stopper I was discussing, but the ones that are a cylinder and require a "corker" to insert them and a corkscrew to remove them.

I certainly couldn't disagree with that, but the two vintners I heard make the statements I mentioend implied they were expressing a consensus on that subject. Primarily, I wanted to make the oiknt that I was not merely expressing my own personal opinion.

Again, I understand you to mean the ones that must be inserted by a corker and removed with a corkscrew

I don't know if we coud call my 40 years of experience using them as "data"; I did not bottle an equal amount of wine with "real' corks as a control group or conduct any other scientific activity. I can only say I have found them trouble-free all those years.

I presume you've seen the url posted just above, in this thread.

If you missed it, I'll send it to you.

vince norris

Coincidence. I was also in Seattle in 1969 visiting my mother (for the last time unfortunately). We watched the moon walk on TV together. I also purchased some closures while I was there. Who knows, maybe we bumped into each other that day !!

Regards, Frederick

They are called "tasting corks" because they are often used at wine-tastings to reseal the bottle once the (regular) cork has been removed. They are called T-tops because that is what their shape calls to mind to some people (although I prefer your comparison to a hex-head bolt). Presque Isle calls them plastic-top corks, which is also an accurate depiction. There are a number of other names used by various winemaking supplies shoppes and internet stores. I think of them as "tasting corks" because that it the name I first heard to describe them.

Since I had not seen the "red top plastic stoppers" prior to this discussion, I referred to them as "plastic tasting corks". I tend to think of all forms of bungs, stoppers, etc. as "corks" regardless of the material from which they are constructed.

I'm sorry that I was unclear. What you now describe is what I referred to as "synthetic corks", which I believe is the industry term.

In this instance, that is what I mean. Since I have no experience with the "red tops", I can hardly be expected to prefer them. :)

However, as I said in the first post was "...I believe the best all-around solution is synthetic corks (and possibly plastic T-corks)...." I suppose I should have said "plastic stoppers".

If they are as good as you say, they would certainly be something I would consider using.

That's certainly a recommendation I respect, and (based on your experience) I intend to give them a try. Of course, had you used natural and synthetic corks over the same period as well, and found no difference, or an improvement, that would be even more convincing. :)

I have tried the natural cork "tasting corks", and am not happy with them. The cork tends to crumble after a period of time in the bottle, and they are difficult to re-insert after the first use. I assume that this would not be a problem with the "red top" plastic stoppers, although (as stated earlier) I'm wondering how good a seal they make initially, and whether they distort with age or not.

I've also tried the "champagne cork" type of plastic stopper, and found that they need to be wired to the bottle, or the ordinary expansion and contraction that occurs with minor temperature changes will push them out of the bottle.

I've bookmarked the

url. Thank you.

Hey, now that you mention it, I think I remember you! (:-))

vince