Forgot to Cold Settle - Advice?

If I were you, I'd forget about trying to strain the juice. That simply won't work. If you have the refrigerator space, chill the wine to stop the fermentation, let it settle, rack the clear juice off and continue with the fermentation. If you can do that the wine will be better than if you do nothing. That sediment tends to yield a rather coarse quality to the wine, so it'd be nice to get it out of there before it's too late. Also, you might tend to have H2S problems if you ferment on the muck, so if you decide to do so be sure that you add yeast nutrient to the juice and have some DAP on hand in case it starts to get stinky during the fermentation.

Tom S

For some reason my reply days ago didn't show up, so here's an update. I did end up performing a "splash straining" through a mesh bag with 50 PPM sulfite in the receiving container. I got rid of most of the gunk. The wine was only 'on' it in full force for 24 hours. Right now, after 5 full days, the wine is topped up in a 5 gal carboy with about 1.5" of lees; grape junk at the bottom with dying yeast above. Two days ago, I sniffed a touch of H2S and quickly added yeast nutrient. The smell subsided and I am now stirring the lees every day until the fermentation ends. It's nearly there;

I *think* I'm okay, but only time will tell. Oddly, Jeff Cox doesn't include cold settling as a fundamental step in "From Vines to Wines." He mentions it only in passing as a way that some wineries use to get the "lightest, freshest" white wine. This omission made me feel a bit better. He also shies from Bentonite fining, and barely acknowledges filtering. I get the sense that he is a bit more an a 'natural' winemaker. Certainly there is no dearth of styles from which to model one's efforts in this pursuit.

Anyhow, time will tell.

Roger Quinta do Placer

Sounds like you dodged a bullet, and have things under control.

Jeez, _that_ much! ;^D I usually put ~1/3 cup of StaVin "beans" in a _gallon_ of juice. You must not like oak.

To be charitable, I'd say that book is hopelessly out of date. My experience tells me that the clearest juice makes the best wines, and gives you the least problems during fermentation. The only downside is that clarified juice may be more nutrient poor than unclarified. Fine with me! I compensate by adding nutrient, yest hulls and vitamins. I feel that's a good trade for the bad bugs and MOG in that goopy stuff.

This omission made me feel a bit better.

Sounds like he has little or no experience in those areas. If he did, he'd be sure to mention that he'd tried and abandoned those techniques, and give his reasons.

Not only is that book out of date, it's also incomplete. Does he at least advocate the use of SO2?

Tom S

My first time with Chardonnay here! 1 Tbsp in the secondary, and once I rack off that and see how much it affected the taste, I will likely add more during clarification/aging. I'm feeling things out. Stylistically, I am trying for something shy of the all-out rich Chard experience. I am not specifically encouraging MLF for example (these are Lodi area grapes). As for cold settling, I have learned my lesson for next year. I was just relieved to know that I didn't do something irreversibly dreadful and out of whack with all winemaking standards.

I should really dig out the book and reply with quotes... but he DOES talk about fining and filtering, just in a tone indicating that he prefers not to use the techniques. Fining is discussed in some detail, but filtering is just a tiny paragraph. And the use of SO2 is certainly covered, charts and all.

Thanks again for the comments!

Roger

So what I'm going to do is... now that it's barely moving - SG reads 1.000 - and I want it off the gross lees, I'm going to Bentonite fine it and put it in my fridge to cold stabilize NOW. I really want to rack it ONCE off all of those lees (gross, yeast, finings, tartrates) rather than twice. I tasted it and the acidity is 'mellow' - if any MLF is underway, arresting it wouldn't be a bad idea.

Once it finishes in the fridge, I will rack it, add SO2, and more oak chips. If any fine lees appear after that, they will get stirred. Does this seem like a reasonable approach, given the way this wine started?

Roger

Hang on a minute. If you take the (now what seem) standard working definitions of gross/heavy and light lees (I believe Dominique Delteil of ICV popularised them and others, like for e.g. Zoecklein took them up) as:

Heavy: vegetal particulates (with juice clarification at > 200 NTU in must), tartaric crystals/yeast/precipitated colloidal matter conglomerates, fining particulates. More generally, particles deposited within 24 hours and > 100 microns.

Light: yeast from the end of alcoholic fermentation and afterwards, and lactic bacteria deposited towards the end of MLF. More generally, particles remaining suspended 24 hours after the wine has been moved and 1-10's of microns.

Then, with these definitions, heavy lees present basically no advantages to wine whereas light lees present many. Stirring of such defined light lees is certainly necessary.

Ben

Thanx for posting that info Ben. I had been wondering what some were referring to as gross lees. I've always though the total yeast lees were considered gross. I leave them all in for sur-lie.

clyde

The light lees in this reference are what I consider "gross lees". What he calls heavy lees never make it into my fermenters if I can help it. They remain behind in the juice settling tank.

The original poster was referring to the fine lees remaining after racking from the fermentation lees. They wouldn't amount to much more than a dusting on the bottom of a carboy.

Tom S

I'm glad someone chimed in here because I have read a LOT about stirring fine lees in the past week! Ben also happens to have a picture on his site that shows fine lees in a carboy - thanks for the reply Ben!

The original subject of this thread was "My goodness, I didn't cold settle my juice and rack off the (very) gross lees before pitching yeast. Whatever shall I do?" I opted, within 24 hours, to strain the majority of the muck out of my newly fermenting wine. As such, I ended up with gross lees that are marginally more voluminous than what would have been, had I racked off the muck first.

I don't plan to stir that for 'flavor' due to the presence of some vegetative stuff. I have been stirring it only to prevent H2S as the ferment reaches its imminent terminus. I'm going to rack it, fine it immediately with Bentonite, top it up, and cold stabilize it - bing bang boom.

Once it comes out of the fridge in 2 weeks or so, I will rack off the Bentonite and tartrate lees onto oak chips, top up, and give it a good night kiss. If there is any preciptate after THAT - are you all in agreement that there is no value in utilizing it for anything, and to just ignore it?

Roger

Hi Tom,

With all due respect, I question your last statement. As stated in my last post, I've read of wineries that rack off the fermented yeast then sur lie/batonnage off that which settles _following_ fermentation. They refer to this as the "fine lees" and that's what they use for sur lie and battonage.

In my experience I can get up to 1"+ of lees at the bottom of a 5 gallon carboy after fermentation. What settles after I rack (following fermentation) is light, but not a "light dusting." I can get a good 1/4", and even more after fining. What settles after I fine and rack agin, that's a light dusting... barely anything. In fact, last year just about nothing!

What I'm saying is, with time, I do get enough settled lees after fermenting and racking to use for sur lie and batonnage. Following fermentation and racking, the must is still cloudy with particles in suspension. These suspended particles eventually settle only to be re-suspended with batonnage. My understanding was the process many wineries perform follows the use of light lees that settles following fermentation and racking.

Am I misunderstanding something?

-Paul

I've tasted a bit of wine from TomS. It would put most commercial wines of that style to shame.

My training in sur-lie winemaking had me always leave what you're calling gross lees in the barrel. I still do, and never experienced any problem.

I have a colleague that spent quite a few years making wine in several regions of France, and now he makes wine in Missouri. He does his sur lie on what you're calling gross lees.

Just another variable that makes winemaking so fascinating.

clyde

We all have our own methods that work for us, I suppose.

It could be that the wineries you're referring to don't clarify their juice as thoroughly as I do, so it would be appropriate for them to rack early to get the wine off the vegetable matter in the barrel. Done early, the wine would still have a fair amount of suspended material - mostly yeast - remaining in it, which would settle to form a layer of lees.

OTOH, I settle my juice as well as possible prior to fermentation. The result is that my "gross lees" are almost entirely spent yeast. I don't rack the wine at all until it's time to get ready for bottling, so the wine sees considerable lees contact - especially since I stir every 2 or 3 months. After racking, the volume of lees in a 225 liter barrel is 2-3 gallons. BTW, the fragrance of the lees is incredible! The French anthropomorphize the lees, saying that they "feed" the wine. I believe it!

That all depends on how clear the wine is when you rack and how good your racking technique is!

I really couldn't say for sure. All I can tell you is that my Chardonnay doesn't leave the barrel from the time I inoculate the juice until it's time to get it ready for bottling. I don't know what other wineries are doing, and they might not want to tell you all their secrets.

Tom S

Thank you, Clyde! I'll try to remember to send you some of my 2001 Chardonnay. You and Katie will enjoy it as much as I do your barrel fermented Chardonel.

Tom S

What Tom is calling "gross lees" are what Delteil is defining as "fine lees". This is because Tom is settling pre-fermentation to the point where all the lees that is produced is yeast cells from fermentation and MLB - this fits Delteil's definition of "fine lees". You could argue that some of this lees of Tom's includes tartaric crystals/precipitated colloidal matter conglomerates, and that conglomerate reduce SO2 effectiveness, release bitter substances, etc. But I suspect (from comments in this thread) these substances minimal, and more importantly, this lees does not include vegetal particulates (which is the real risk in terms of off-flavours developing).

However, Tom's statement about the lees that remains after a racking following fermentation that "they wouldn't amount to much more than a dusting on the bottom of a carboy" I also happen to disagree with. Fine lees (post fermentation and post 1st racking) can be more that a "light dusting" as Paul points out - it's light, but's it's more than a "dusting". However, I would submit that what Tom leaves is essentially "fine lees" within the Delteil definition. So there is no real discrepancy there.

Clyde, however, states that "I've always though the total yeast lees were considered gross. I leave them all in for sur-lie." and "My training in sur-lie winemaking had me always leave what you're calling gross lees in the barrel. I still do, and never experienced any problem." Are you saying, Clyde, that you include vegetal matter and tannin/tartrate/colour conglomerates in your definition of "gross lees" and that you leave these in for sur lie? I would have said that that was risky: fruit debris/conglomerates can impart off/herbaceous aromas and flavours, bitter substances, H2S, and it can combine with SO2 causing a blocking of its antimicrobial and antioxidant properties.

Now coming back to the original question:

Roger had gross/heavy lees pre-fermentation. This was not cold settled, but strained so some remained (I believe we can assume it included vegetal matter). He wrote that he was then: "going to rack it, fine it immediately with Bentonite, top it up, and cold stabilize it... Once it comes out of the fridge in 2 weeks or so, I will rack off the Bentonite and tartrate lees onto oak chips, top up... If there is any preciptate after THAT - are you all in agreement that there is no value in utilizing it for anything, and to just ignore it?"

I would say that is the best approach. That removes the heavy (gross) lees (including vegetal matter, tartrates, bentonite, tannin/pigment/yeast conglomerates) and leaves you with "light lees". I would say there will be precipitating yeast after that, and that there *is* value in utilising that lees. Anyone in disagreement with that? If so, why?

Hopefully getting clearer now :-) Ben

Ahhh... I'm definitely learning a lot with this discussion. Thanks for the input!

Yeah, you're getting such good results due to the settling. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a refrigerator to place the demijohn for a few days so I may have to make-due with what I have.

Boy... it's a tough decision... I can either way, I suppose: rack after fermentation or wait and hope things go well. The first seems conservative, the latter certainly sensible, albeit nerve-racking for the first go-around. But, what better way to learn that to do it.

I could split the juice between two vessels after fermentation and try both ways, then see what results I get. Rack the juice into one and the yeast and juice into the other.

Hmmm...

-Paul

I think it's fair to summarize by saying that one man's gross lees is another man's fine lees.

The salient point to be gleaned from Tom's method is, as he stated, that his 'gross' lees fall out of wine that has been *completely settled and racked* before fermenting. Thus he starts with a much more refined must, and what is created during fermentation is nearly all yeast. Not really so gross.

What *I* did was to mistakenly include a lot of the raw pressings from my Chardonnay grapes in my initial ferment. Thus my gross lees were, well, much more gross. :-\

The initial racking off that would of course discard much of the yeast lees that Tom keeps in his wine; no choice - it's all at the bottom with the muck and can't be separated. Thus what I'm left with in terms of subsequent lees will probably be rather light in comparison (excluding fining lees). If they amount to anything more than a dusting, I think it will be useful to stir them. The effect will probably be similar, just muted as the quantity is so much less.

Thanks all for a very informative lesson.

Roger Quinta do Placer

No. It's so easy to get caught in your own little world and think that the rest of the world is with you. My statement was "total YEAST lees considered gross". I would never consider fermenting a white juice without clarifying it first. In fact, this year I've had the great added benefit of being able to settle the juice and then filter the sediment. Being the first time I've done this for myself, I wanted to, and was able to, ferment the filtrant separately. It has some wonderful character (proportionate blend of free and press) and so far has had no propensity to H2S.

Just a brief comment here for the op. I "cold settle" my juice without refrigeration, so occasionally have had spontaneous fermentations before racking. These have never proceded very far, and I've found that the juice can still be racked even though signs of life are present. I've never let it go very far, but would think that even if the fermentation got to be rolling, that a simple racking and discarding of the bulk of the lees (avoiding the controversal term of "gross" now) would be of great benefit.

Another comment on an earlier topic about the characteristic(s) of fine lees: I've noticed a dramatic difference in the qualities of the fine lees depending on which yeast are used. For example, W27 throws a bit more lees and they seem to be much more compact and muckier (to use a technical term) as compared to some other yeast I've used.

(I believe we can assume it

I would have to agree with some lees is better than none, though many wines are made without any extended lees contact at all. Typically, these are a different style: light, crisp, fruit-forward.

clyde