Using multiple yeast cultures vs. wild yeasts

One of the advantages of using wild yeasts seems to be that there are so many of them competing, dying out, taking over, etc. ... each leaving its mark on the wine.

Can this be done to similar effect with cultured yeasts? I have about a half-dozen cultured yeasts. What would the argument be for and against just making a giant yeast cocktail and pitching that?

Reply to
Michael Brill
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Michael, Each yeast may leave it's mark on the wine, but the marks are tiny.

Yes it can be done. For...........Complexity might be improved. Against: ....The improvement will be small and probably not detectable unless you are making "world class" wines.

lum

Reply to
Lum

I'm buying world class grapes, weeklong cold soak under CO2 cover, minimal racking, gravity fed everything, world class cooperage, high risk everything (low SO2 additions, gross lees aging, partial whole cluster fermentation, native yeasts**, no fining/filtering planned). So, other than my lack of experience as a winemaker, why shouldn't I shoot for world class wines?

Although clearly I'm insane to attempt 10 barrels my first year of winemaking (although I have a partner, so I'm only half-insane), my worst fear is 250 cases of uninteresting wine. I'd rather screw up

225 cases to have 25 cases of world class wine. So I'm trying to eek out every bit of info and trick to get it right. ** Note that some barrels will be started with native yeasts, others started with cultured. This thread is about trying to figure out whether I can achieve the best of both worlds.
Reply to
Michael Brill

I can't think of any better reason Michael. Good luck.

Reply to
Lum

I understand where you're coming from; it has _nothing_ to do with profit; it has _everything_ to do with quality.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work as you'd prefer. Sacrificing 90% of your yield in no way guarantees that the rest will be any better than what you chose to dump.

If you live anywhere near the "heartland" for whatever it is you're trying to make, I'd recommend you seek out a consultant. Unless you get _really_ lucky, you're apt to make one or several of the Classic Errors at some time along the process. It's inevitable. I've been at this for 20+ years, and I still make mistakes. It's almost as difficult as Bridge.

I highly recommend that you attend the best week-long (or more) class on winemaking you can find. If you have to travel to do it, take some vacation time there and just _do_ it! That's the best $$ I spent on self-improvement in the last 20 years. I learned about winemaking, from stem to stern. We took apart and repaired barrels, tasted "tea" of wood from different coopers, learned how to do all the regular lab tests and - my personal favorite - learned about _fining_!

There was lots more, but the course was two _weeks_; it'll only take you a few minutes to read this.

BTW, it's "eke"; not "eek". I knew that was wrong as soon as I saw it, but it took me a while to remember the correct spelling.

My experience tells me that winemaking is hard enough, doing it the _easy_ way.

Until you really know what you're doing, why experiment with low grade or unproofed (native) strains of yeast? All the evidence I've seen says that the differences among yeast strains tend to disappear with age - especially in red wines - but it's important to get a clean fermentation going that produces as little VA as possible.

So called "natural" fermentations are a crapshoot, at best. You _might_ end up with a good wine, but you could just as easily end up with something that smells like nail polish remover.

Just pick one or more of the strains that Lallemand, Red Star or ? offers as pure culture, and go with that.

Be sure to pick an ML culture too. Personally, I like to inoculate for ML just after the yeast fermentation takes off. That's what the Wine Lab recommends, and it seems to work. I need to mention that this is done on wines that have _no_ added sulfite at crush.

Be sure to use yeast and ML nutrients and vitamins.

Tom S

Reply to
Tom S

Where does one find classes on winemaking? I've looked around, but haven't been able to find any.

Thanks!

Woods

Reply to
Woodswun

A consultant? Eek! Where's the fun in that? I've considered taking a Davis distance learning class, bought the textbook and feel that I've pretty much got the basics nailed. I agree with you that it would be valuable to do anyway, but at this point it's not going to help me for 2003! I also think tracking down a pinot consultant might not be a bad idea. Luckily I live in San Francisco and have access to a bunch of folks who do this for a living. I've talked with several commercial pinot producers and come to this newsgroup when I can't seem to get consistent answers from them. As far as making "classic errors," I'm sure I will, consultant or not. BTW, what are the big mistakes that you still make?

I'm exaggerating, but my basic point is that I'm willing to experiment with things beyond the Home Winemaking Basics to try to create something special.

Ack!

Good questions. My $0.02: Almost all top pinot producers use native yeast fermentation - both here and Burgundy. I have yet to speak to anyone who's put wines through native yeast fermentation and has ended up with nail polish remover. This opinion seems to be held by those that haven't tried. Having said that, I'm sure it can and does happen. My bigger concern is about stuck fermentation - which does happen much more often with native yeasts. And that was the gist of my post here. Why not get the flavor/aroma diversity benefits of multiple yeasts found in native yeast fermentation with the safety of commercial yeast? Do this by pitching a half-dozen different commercial yeasts. Make sure they have a lot of food and you get diversity and a high probability of a complete fermentation.

I agree. So far I've not seen anything super-compelling on why ML should be delayed (although, again, the top producers do let it occur naturally). I'm probably going to pitch the ML culture during primary for 2 of the barrels of pinot and let it occur naturally in the other

2 pinot. Note that all of this is going in 1 year old Frech oak that's already ML bacteria infected from last year.

We've got 2 barrels of chardonnay under way and this week we've got 1

1/2 tons of syrah and a 1/2 ton of pinot coming in.

Thanks, ...Michael

Reply to
Michael Brill

Figures it's somewhere defunct. I have checked with UC Davis - the most they offer is 2-3 days with broad coverage - not a lot in depth. The more focused workshops are one day, and the west coast is a long way to travel for that.

Oh well. Thanks,

Ed

Reply to
Ed Marks

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