yeast


Will different yeast give me a different taste in the same wine i make? I see thier is different ALC content,but will this make for a taste that is not the same?
Reply to
k-dawg
From what I hear they do make for different flavours, but the more mature the wine, the less strong these flavours appear. I plan to experiment with some montrachet & champagne yeast versions of the same wine this year to see how much affect I can deduce. Jim > Will different yeast give me a different taste in the same wine i make? > I see thier is different ALC content,but will this make for a taste > that is not the same? >
Reply to
jim
> Will different yeast give me a different taste > in the same wine i make? I see thier is > different ALC content,but will this make for a > taste that is not the same?
Each strain of yeast has its own temperature range, pH and other variables at which it does best. In my opinion, yeast will not contribute flavor or taste on its own BUT the conditions under which you expect it to do its work should be taken into account when you select the strain.
Others may not support this opinion and I welcome their input.
I had a situation a couple years ago in which I fermented my backyard vineyard grapes outside during a relatively cool October. I used Pasteur Red. I had to bring the wine inside after about two weeks because (I learned from experience) the Pasteur Red does not do very well at 50 degrees.
The wine eventually finished and it was fruity but the color and body were lacking. I think I would have had a lot different tasting wine had I used something like EC 1118.
I now use a different yeast in cool conditions. The Pasteur Red, however, does very well under warmer conditions.
In summary, it was the conditions the yeast was expected to do its thing in and not the yeast itself that made a difference.
I suggest you experiment and divide your must into several lots and try a different yeast on each - under the same conditions, of course.
Reply to
Paul E. Lehmann
> Will different yeast give me a different taste in the same wine i make?
Short answers are: Yes, absolutely and for sure.
Most of the characteristics of a particular yeast are imparted in the early stages of fermentation.
There are times when more than one yeast is used. An example being when you want a really dry wine, you might start out with the yeast that gives you the primary taste you're after. Then you might use a champagne yeast in an attempt to ferment as much of the sugars as possible. The end result being both the flavour and dryness that your're after.
Mike
Reply to
M Lawson
> > > Will different yeast give me a different taste > > in the same wine i make? I see thier is > > different ALC content,but will this make for a > > taste that is not the same? > > Each strain of yeast has its own temperature > range, pH and other variables at which it does > best. In my opinion, yeast will not contribute > flavor or taste on its own BUT the conditions > under which you expect it to do its work should > be taken into account when you select the strain. > > Others may not support this opinion and I welcome > their input. > > I had a situation a couple years ago in which I > fermented my backyard vineyard grapes outside > during a relatively cool October. I used Pasteur > Red. I had to bring the wine inside after about > two weeks because (I learned from experience) the > Pasteur Red does not do very well at 50 degrees. > > The wine eventually finished and it was fruity but > the color and body were lacking. I think I would > have had a lot different tasting wine had I used > something like EC 1118. > > I now use a different yeast in cool conditions. > The Pasteur Red, however, does very well under > warmer conditions. > > In summary, it was the conditions the yeast was > expected to do its thing in and not the yeast > itself that made a difference. > > I suggest you experiment and divide your must into > several lots and try a different yeast on each - > under the same conditions, of course.
On the assumption that wine yeasts behave the same as lager yeasts, then fermentation temperatures can (and are??) used to fine tune the flavour of a wine.
Reply to
M Lawson
> > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote > in message > >> >> > Will different yeast give me a different >> > taste in the same wine i make? I see thier is >> > different ALC content,but will this make for >> > a taste that is not the same? >> >> Each strain of yeast has its own temperature >> range, pH and other variables at which it does >> best. In my opinion, yeast will not contribute >> flavor or taste on its own BUT the conditions >> under which you expect it to do its work should >> be taken into account when you select the >> strain. >> >> Others may not support this opinion and I >> welcome their input. >> >> I had a situation a couple years ago in which I >> fermented my backyard vineyard grapes outside >> during a relatively cool October. I used >> Pasteur >> Red. I had to bring the wine inside after >> about two weeks because (I learned from >> experience) the Pasteur Red does not do very >> well at 50 degrees. >> >> The wine eventually finished and it was fruity >> but >> the color and body were lacking. I think I >> would have had a lot different tasting wine had >> I used something like EC 1118. >> >> I now use a different yeast in cool conditions. >> The Pasteur Red, however, does very well under >> warmer conditions. >> >> In summary, it was the conditions the yeast was >> expected to do its thing in and not the yeast >> itself that made a difference. >> >> I suggest you experiment and divide your must >> into several lots and try a different yeast on >> each - under the same conditions, of course. > > On the assumption that wine yeasts behave the > same as lager yeasts, then fermentation > temperatures can (and are??) used to fine tune > the flavour of a wine.
But - the flavour is not coming from the yeast.
Reply to
Paul E. Lehmann
Different yeasts don't make slightly different flavours from their workings? Jim > >> >> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote >> in message >> >>> >>> > Will different yeast give me a different >>> > taste in the same wine i make? I see thier is >>> > different ALC content,but will this make for >>> > a taste that is not the same? >>> >>> Each strain of yeast has its own temperature >>> range, pH and other variables at which it does >>> best. In my opinion, yeast will not contribute >>> flavor or taste on its own BUT the conditions >>> under which you expect it to do its work should >>> be taken into account when you select the >>> strain. >>> >>> Others may not support this opinion and I >>> welcome their input. >>> >>> I had a situation a couple years ago in which I >>> fermented my backyard vineyard grapes outside >>> during a relatively cool October. I used >>> Pasteur >>> Red. I had to bring the wine inside after >>> about two weeks because (I learned from >>> experience) the Pasteur Red does not do very >>> well at 50 degrees. >>> >>> The wine eventually finished and it was fruity >>> but >>> the color and body were lacking. I think I >>> would have had a lot different tasting wine had >>> I used something like EC 1118. >>> >>> I now use a different yeast in cool conditions. >>> The Pasteur Red, however, does very well under >>> warmer conditions. >>> >>> In summary, it was the conditions the yeast was >>> expected to do its thing in and not the yeast >>> itself that made a difference. >>> >>> I suggest you experiment and divide your must >>> into several lots and try a different yeast on >>> each - under the same conditions, of course. >> >> On the assumption that wine yeasts behave the >> same as lager yeasts, then fermentation >> temperatures can (and are??) used to fine tune >> the flavour of a wine. > > But - the flavour is not coming from the yeast.
Reply to
jim
> Different yeasts don't make slightly different > flavours from their workings? > > Jim In my opinion, the yeast does not contribute directly to the flavours. Each strain has its temperature range, pH range and acidity that it will perform best and thus possibly allow flavours ALREADY PRESENT IN THE FRUIT to come out or be suppressed. This is my personal opinion and I am sure there are those who will disagree with me. I have never done the following but I think it would lend some insight: Make a water sugar solution to about 22 brix and bring it up to a pH of say 3.5 - no fruit or flavouring and ferment with different yeast. My bet is that you will not get that "Blackberry", "Plum" or whatever descriptor you choose to use. I know that the yeast manufactures make all kinds of claims that their yeast will add such and such flaovours but I ain't buying it. Some have claimed to use different yeast on a divided lot of the same fruit and fermented and could tell a difference. Again, there may be a difference but I doubt the Yeast produced the flavours. Different strains merely allowed the flavours already present in the fruit to come out. Also, I have seen differences in the exact same fruit with divided lots in different fermentors or carboys and the exact same treatment and yeast used. This is just one of the mysteries of Organic Chemistry. > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote > in message > >> >>> >>> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote >>> in message >>> >> >>>> >>>> > Will different yeast give me a different >>>> > taste in the same wine i make? I see thier >>>> > is different ALC content,but will this make >>>> > for a taste that is not the same? >>>> >>>> Each strain of yeast has its own temperature >>>> range, pH and other variables at which it >>>> does >>>> best. In my opinion, yeast will not >>>> contribute flavor or taste on its own BUT the >>>> conditions under which you expect it to do >>>> its work should be taken into account when >>>> you select the strain. >>>> >>>> Others may not support this opinion and I >>>> welcome their input. >>>> >>>> I had a situation a couple years ago in which >>>> I fermented my backyard vineyard grapes >>>> outside >>>> during a relatively cool October. I used >>>> Pasteur >>>> Red. I had to bring the wine inside after >>>> about two weeks because (I learned from >>>> experience) the Pasteur Red does not do very >>>> well at 50 degrees. >>>> >>>> The wine eventually finished and it was >>>> fruity but >>>> the color and body were lacking. I think I >>>> would have had a lot different tasting wine >>>> had I used something like EC 1118. >>>> >>>> I now use a different yeast in cool >>>> conditions. The Pasteur Red, however, does >>>> very well under warmer conditions. >>>> >>>> In summary, it was the conditions the yeast >>>> was expected to do its thing in and not the >>>> yeast itself that made a difference. >>>> >>>> I suggest you experiment and divide your must >>>> into several lots and try a different yeast >>>> on each - under the same conditions, of >>>> course. >>> >>> On the assumption that wine yeasts behave the >>> same as lager yeasts, then fermentation >>> temperatures can (and are??) used to fine tune >>> the flavour of a wine. >> >> But - the flavour is not coming from the yeast.
Reply to
Paul E. Lehmann
> > > Jim > > In my opinion, the yeast does not contribute > directly to the flavours. Each strain has its > temperature range, pH range and acidity that it > will perform best and thus possibly allow > flavours ALREADY PRESENT IN THE FRUIT to come out > or be suppressed. This is my personal opinion > and I am sure there are those who will disagree > with me. > > I have never done the following but I think it > would lend some insight: > > Make a water sugar solution to about 22 brix and > bring it up to a pH of say 3.5 - no fruit or > flavouring and ferment with different yeast. My > bet is that you will not get that "Blackberry", > "Plum" or whatever descriptor you choose to use. > I know that the yeast manufactures make all kinds > of claims that their yeast will add such and such > flaovours but I ain't buying it. > > Some have claimed to use different yeast on a > divided lot of the same fruit and fermented and > could tell a difference. Again, there may be a > difference but I doubt the Yeast produced the > flavours. Different strains merely allowed the > flavours already present in the fruit to come > out. > > Also, I have seen differences in the exact same > fruit with divided lots in different fermentors > or carboys and the exact same treatment and yeast > used. This is just one of the mysteries of > Organic Chemistry. >
My understanding is they're not saying that the yeast produces all those flavours and aromas on its own, rather that the yeast acts as a catalyst that emphasizes certain characteristics. In that view it's not black or white, i.e, the environmental characteristics like pH, temperature, etc. of course contribute to how the yeast performs but that doesn't preclude the yeast from making its imprint on the must.
I'm not very good in picking up subtle differences between batches done with different yeasts, but I've had one very clear case where the result went along the lines of what the yeast company said - we used D21 and D254 on Petite Sirah and the D21 batch had noticeably more acidity in the end, not by measurement but on the palate. This was still obvious after 1 year of aging.
Over the years, I've come up with some yeast favourites for different wine styles, and the selections were originally based mostly on the purported style effects of the yeast, with the environmental factors like temperature range just as a rough preselection step. So even if some or most of the marketing blurbs were just hype, I'm happy with the practical results.
Pp
Reply to
pp
Interesting, thanks for the clarification Paul. I asked because I have had problems getting to my local wineshops lately and had similar problems with their delivery charges. I ran out of champagne yeast, but have a jar full of Montrachet comp which I have been using for the last four gallons I have made, despite three of the recipes specifying champagne yeast... I'd looked up the properties of Montrachet vs Champagne yeasts in a basic sense and decided that the Montrachet was of high enough alcohol tolerance and foaming tendancy didn't matter and the fruit I was using wasn't extraordinarily sulphured - and therefore I could use up my Montrachet comp while it was fresh, even though it wasn't the recommended ingredient. I'd read - I think it might have been in Lum's excellent resource - that different yeasts produce or as pp put it 'emphasise' different flavours. If the impact is marginal though, I will happily 'make do' with an alternate yeast when I haven't got the one mentioned. I had been making do but feeling a bit bad about it, like I was going to rob myself of the wines potential by using the 'wrong' one... Thanks for the further info both, Jim > >> Different yeasts don't make slightly different >> flavours from their workings? >> >> Jim > > In my opinion, the yeast does not contribute > directly to the flavours. Each strain has its > temperature range, pH range and acidity that it > will perform best and thus possibly allow > flavours ALREADY PRESENT IN THE FRUIT to come out > or be suppressed. This is my personal opinion > and I am sure there are those who will disagree > with me. > > I have never done the following but I think it > would lend some insight: > > Make a water sugar solution to about 22 brix and > bring it up to a pH of say 3.5 - no fruit or > flavouring and ferment with different yeast. My > bet is that you will not get that "Blackberry", > "Plum" or whatever descriptor you choose to use. > I know that the yeast manufactures make all kinds > of claims that their yeast will add such and such > flaovours but I ain't buying it. > > Some have claimed to use different yeast on a > divided lot of the same fruit and fermented and > could tell a difference. Again, there may be a > difference but I doubt the Yeast produced the > flavours. Different strains merely allowed the > flavours already present in the fruit to come > out. > > Also, I have seen differences in the exact same > fruit with divided lots in different fermentors > or carboys and the exact same treatment and yeast > used. This is just one of the mysteries of > Organic Chemistry. > >> >> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote >> in message >> >>> >>>> >>>> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote >>>> in message >>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>> > Will different yeast give me a different >>>>> > taste in the same wine i make? I see thier >>>>> > is different ALC content,but will this make >>>>> > for a taste that is not the same? >>>>> >>>>> Each strain of yeast has its own temperature >>>>> range, pH and other variables at which it >>>>> does >>>>> best. In my opinion, yeast will not >>>>> contribute flavor or taste on its own BUT the >>>>> conditions under which you expect it to do >>>>> its work should be taken into account when >>>>> you select the strain. >>>>> >>>>> Others may not support this opinion and I >>>>> welcome their input. >>>>> >>>>> I had a situation a couple years ago in which >>>>> I fermented my backyard vineyard grapes >>>>> outside >>>>> during a relatively cool October. I used >>>>> Pasteur >>>>> Red. I had to bring the wine inside after >>>>> about two weeks because (I learned from >>>>> experience) the Pasteur Red does not do very >>>>> well at 50 degrees. >>>>> >>>>> The wine eventually finished and it was >>>>> fruity but >>>>> the color and body were lacking. I think I >>>>> would have had a lot different tasting wine >>>>> had I used something like EC 1118. >>>>> >>>>> I now use a different yeast in cool >>>>> conditions. The Pasteur Red, however, does >>>>> very well under warmer conditions. >>>>> >>>>> In summary, it was the conditions the yeast >>>>> was expected to do its thing in and not the >>>>> yeast itself that made a difference. >>>>> >>>>> I suggest you experiment and divide your must >>>>> into several lots and try a different yeast >>>>> on each - under the same conditions, of >>>>> course. >>>> >>>> On the assumption that wine yeasts behave the >>>> same as lager yeasts, then fermentation >>>> temperatures can (and are??) used to fine tune >>>> the flavour of a wine. >>> >>> But - the flavour is not coming from the yeast. >
Reply to
jim
>> >> > Jim >> >> In my opinion, the yeast does not contribute >> directly to the flavours. Each strain has its >> temperature range, pH range and acidity that it >> will perform best and thus possibly allow >> flavours ALREADY PRESENT IN THE FRUIT to come >> out >> or be suppressed. This is my personal opinion >> and I am sure there are those who will disagree >> with me. >> >> I have never done the following but I think it >> would lend some insight: >> >> Make a water sugar solution to about 22 brix >> and bring it up to a pH of say 3.5 - no fruit >> or >> flavouring and ferment with different yeast. >> My bet is that you will not get that >> "Blackberry", "Plum" or whatever descriptor you >> choose to use. I know that the yeast >> manufactures make all kinds of claims that >> their yeast will add such and such flaovours >> but I ain't buying it. >> >> Some have claimed to use different yeast on a >> divided lot of the same fruit and fermented and >> could tell a difference. Again, there may be a >> difference but I doubt the Yeast produced the >> flavours. Different strains merely allowed the >> flavours already present in the fruit to come >> out. >> >> Also, I have seen differences in the exact same >> fruit with divided lots in different fermentors >> or carboys and the exact same treatment and >> yeast >> used. This is just one of the mysteries of >> Organic Chemistry. >> > > My understanding is they're not saying that the > yeast produces all > those flavours and aromas on its own, rather > that the yeast acts as a catalyst that > emphasizes certain characteristics. In that view > it's not black or white, i.e, the environmental > characteristics like pH, temperature, etc. of > course contribute to how the yeast performs but > that doesn't preclude the yeast from making its > imprint on the must. > > I'm not very good in picking up subtle > differences between batches done with different > yeasts, but I've had one very clear case where > the result went along the lines of what the > yeast company said - we used D21 and D254 on > Petite Sirah and the D21 batch had noticeably > more acidity in the end, not by measurement but > on the palate. This was still obvious after 1 > year of aging. I agree that certain strains will metabolize different acids differently. There is one strain - I forget which one - that can gobble up Malic acid. Unfortunately, I used it once in an Apple wine and Voila - a very flabby wine. I should go back a say that in addition to pH, temperature, acidity - the type of acid in the fruit may or should have a bearing on the yeast strain to use - or not use, in my case. > Over the years, I've come up with some yeast > favourites for different wine styles, and the > selections were originally based mostly on the > purported style effects of the yeast, with the > environmental factors like temperature range > just as a rough preselection step. So even if > some or most of the marketing blurbs were just > hype, I'm happy with the practical results. > > Pp
If you are happy with certain yeast then I say by all means go with it or them. You are probably fermenting under roughly the same conditions every year and what works for you works.
I wonder if anyone out there has fermented a red wine with something like D-47 at a temperature around 50 degrees.
My guess is that it would be very light and fruity compared to something like the same must using Pasteur Red and fermented at 85 degrees.
Now, did that fruity wine with hints of berries, cherries etc. etc. result from the yeast or the fact that the D-47 does quite well at lower temperatures, completes fermention in reasonable time and the Pasteur Red does not.
By the time the wine with the Pasteur Red completed fermentation at the cooler temperature (if it ever would go to completion), the wine would have been on the skins for longer than the normal time and I am sure there would be taste differences due to that fact alone.
With all that said, I am more than willing to experiment with different yeast, and I probably will.
Reply to
Paul E. Lehmann

That malic eater is Lalvin 71B, it's pretty useful on tart grapes. The one thing I haven't noticed mention of is the amount of time transpired before tasting. If you drink wines that are young, (like a beer age, say just a few months old) I'm sure yeasts still have some contribution to flavors. Once you get out to a year I think that is overlaid by so many other things it just doesn't contribute much; the yeast is gone anyway.
I absolutely agree that the conditions the yeast are used in have a bigger influence and yeast should be chosen to match the conditions and style you want. White wines in general are drunk younger and made fruitier so a I would want a yeast that doesn't mind cold; reds extract better at higher temperatures; the same yeast may or may not be right there.
1 fail-safe yeast I really like is Lalvin K1V1116, it's pretty much bulletproof. I always have some of that around.
Joe
Reply to
Joe Sallustio
If yeasts don't contribute to the long term flavor of the wine, then why do the Barolo yeasts (like BRL97) and Bordeaux yeast (like BDX) make such different styles of wine than KV1116? Similarly, bread yeast used to ferment grapes imparts too strong a flavor to be chosen to make wine. Many of the flavorful/aromatic products of the yeast metabolic process are volatile, and those volatile products will dissipate over time. However, don't forget that there are low volatility metabolic products that linger. Gene > That malic eater is Lalvin 71B, it's pretty useful on tart grapes. > The one thing I haven't noticed mention of is the amount of time > transpired before tasting. If you drink wines that are young, (like a > beer age, say just a few months old) I'm sure yeasts still have some > contribution to flavors. Once you get out to a year I think that is > overlaid by so many other things it just doesn't contribute much; the > yeast is gone anyway. > > I absolutely agree that the conditions the yeast are used in have a > bigger influence and yeast should be chosen to match the conditions > and style you want. White wines in general are drunk younger and made > fruitier so a I would want a yeast that doesn't mind cold; reds > extract better at higher temperatures; the same yeast may or may not > be right there. > > 1 fail-safe yeast I really like is Lalvin K1V1116, it's pretty much > bulletproof. I always have some of that around. > > Joe >
Reply to
gene
Hi Gene, I thought the problem with bread yeast was alcohol tolerance, I think it's all the same species for wine, ale and bread; saccharomyces cerevisiae. I not saying they don't contribute; I'm saying they are one small piece of a bigger puzzle. I can use BDX on my Central Valley Cabs or Merlot but they won't taste like a First Growth from Bordeaux. I do agree they contribute, but I feel there are bigger things to consider on a red than yeast strain. (I'm not an enologist and this is Usenet so...) I have had reds stick at a little below 0.5% RS lately, probably from using RC 212 for example. I never had that on K1V. I'm drinking some of those 5 year old K1V now and they are good; I don't think that strain (or EC1118, my general purpose for whites) are counterproductive. Another important point is perspective; I am making ordinary table wine from ordinary grapes or pailed juice. It's good, well made wine. If I had access to great grapes I might consider yeast strains more carefully too though. Joe > If yeasts don't contribute to the long term flavor of the wine, then why > do the Barolo yeasts (like BRL97) and Bordeaux yeast (like BDX) make > such different styles of wine than KV1116? > Similarly, bread yeast used to ferment grapes imparts too strong a > flavor to be chosen to make wine. > > Many of the flavorful/aromatic products of the yeast metabolic process > are volatile, and those volatile products will dissipate over time. > However, don't forget that there are low volatility metabolic products > that linger.
Reply to
Joe Sallustio
Yeah, that alcohol tolerance thingy is a big one for bread yeast . Alcohol tolerance and fermentation rate (slow vs fast) are my biggest factors in choosing yeast strain. I was just addressing that the yeast-induced flavor portion is not insignificant. Gene > Hi Gene, > I thought the problem with bread yeast was alcohol tolerance, I think > it's all the same species for wine, ale and bread; saccharomyces > cerevisiae. I not saying they don't contribute; I'm saying they are > one small piece of a bigger puzzle. I can use BDX on my Central > Valley Cabs or Merlot but they won't taste like a First Growth from > Bordeaux. I do agree they contribute, but I feel there are bigger > things to consider on a red than yeast strain. (I'm not an enologist > and this is Usenet so...) > > I have had reds stick at a little below 0.5% RS lately, probably from > using RC 212 for example. I never had that on K1V. I'm drinking some > of those 5 year old K1V now and they are good; I don't think that > strain (or EC1118, my general purpose for whites) are > counterproductive. > > Another important point is perspective; I am making ordinary table > wine from ordinary grapes or pailed juice. It's good, well made > wine. If I had access to great grapes I might consider yeast strains > more carefully too though. > > Joe > >> If yeasts don't contribute to the long term flavor of the wine, then why >> do the Barolo yeasts (like BRL97) and Bordeaux yeast (like BDX) make >> such different styles of wine than KV1116? >> Similarly, bread yeast used to ferment grapes imparts too strong a >> flavor to be chosen to make wine. >> >> Many of the flavorful/aromatic products of the yeast metabolic process >> are volatile, and those volatile products will dissipate over time. >> However, don't forget that there are low volatility metabolic products >> that linger. >
Reply to
gene

DrinksForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.