I was also looking for a recommendation. I'm curious if anybody knows of a reliable source for some quality Imperial Gyokuro. I have tried it from two different places. One source had a Gyokuro of questionable quality due to the vastness of the business in comparison to the rarity of the tea. The other was an independent tea shop in Savannah, but the Gyokuro seemed very mishandled. I gave them the benefit of the doubt and bought some, but after much experimentation, I can't get it to taste... good.
I have found one mf the best sources of Japanese teas is Gray & Seddon (in Australis). Their Japanese teas are shipped directly from Japan. Look at their Gyokuro at
Not to burst any bubbles, but you'll never get any top quality Gyokuro. Sorry to say, it costs a ton and is auctioned off instantly to massive bids. For a number of years I had an inside connection and still only managed to get second level Gyokuro and it cost an arm an a leg. That being said you can get very good stuff from a number of places online. Itoen, o-cha, uji all come to mind... but I'm sure there are more places.
Gyokuro is very difficult, only slightly rewarding, and IMO not worth it. I have found many greens to be more enjoyable, less expensive, and easier to deal with. Bird's toungue, que she, would be a pick for a nice alternative. There are also many nice Chinese greens that are very comparable now, I think it is teaspring.com that has a nice selection of Chinese greens that might fit the bill.
Dominic, to get a better picture, I'd like you to describe the difference between the "second level Gyokuro" that you exprienced and the lesser "very good stuff" available to us more readily. I've had what I *thought* was excellent Gyokuro from Gray and Sedden, but what do I know.
I wasn't trying to split hairs, just inform that no one outside of elite has even a snowball's chance in H E Double Hockeysticks of getting their mits or lips on real, "fresh", top level Gyokuro.
Here is a quote from Gray and Sedden:
"Three kinds of gyokuro are recognized: (i) high-grade gyokuro derived from the first harvest, undergoes moderate to lengthy maturation (3 months minimum), (ii) middle-grade gyokuro derived from the first harvest, undergoes short-time storage (one month), (iii) low grade gyokuro often called netto, derived from a second round of cropping, usually larger leaf fractions, teas are settled but no maturation involved."
The Gyokuro anyone here is buying is from the latter two (ii) and (iii). For some frame of reference I managed to get 500g of to me a very high quality Gyokuro for around $1,000 U.S. directly from a friend who lives near Uji and that was a considerable expense to me but a mere pittance and still not near the top quality (this was at auction prices $100/50g so you can imagine how much even lower the stuff that sells retail for $100/50g is... which is still expensive).
The thing is that it really isn't worth it IMO. I urge others to try it and form their own opinion, but for those who would rather save their money trust me. The tea is good, but it is all hype. It is very demanding, difficult to handle/store and brew, it isn't a nice cup of tea you can sit and just enjoy it requires a focus and itensity many don't have. The Gyokuro's I've bought online have always disappointed me, they are OK but not like the real thing.
It goes bad fast, and like I said there are just so many other solid alternatives that it makes it hard for me to recommend it outside of the standard quality found online just to get an idea of what it is about. So that is why I say to just buy a small amount of a mid grade Gyokuro online and call it a day. If you really are into it then branch out and maybe it will be worth it to pursue some even higher quality leaf, but it is a mountain you can never hope to reach the peaks of unless you have unlimited funds and a major connection.
Other areas of tea have their class like this, TGY, Puerh, etc. but none of them really approach the Gyokuro market. It is a mix of politics, mob ties, big bucks, tradition, family ties, and such... not even remotely accessible by any westerner. There could never be a "Mike Petro" of Gyokuro. And I sure don't even claim to be a minute fraction of that title :)
Thanks for the great responses and recommendations. I know there are plenty of alternatives and I am partial to Chinese teas in general. I'm just looking for a small amount of Gyokuro to satisfy my curiosity.
I will look into these sources. And thanks for the recommendations on other fine Japanese varieties.
Until they stopped auctioning real original Dahongpao off this year, I'd say the tea from those three trees still top the list as "difficult to get and probably not worth your money".
I didn't think you were trying to split hairs, but I had the impression from your previous post that you had tasted a rarified version, and I wanted to get at the differences you experienced between that and the usual ones available to us. Truthfully, I'm far more interested in your impressions than in anything G&S has to say.
snip Gray/Sedden quotes
With some teas, the law of diminishing returns applies. That is, a tea for which you $1.00 or $2.00 a gram is 85%/90% as good as one that costs $50.00 a gram.
Well, focus and intensity sometimes elude me, so I'm better off without the premium brew. On the one hand you're saying that the real good stuff isn't worth it, but on the other hand, you're saying that the teas available to us disappooint you. So, are you saying that the difference *is* startling, and that it's *not* all hype? Sounds like it. (Of Gyokuro, we speak.)
I'd say there is nothing truly like Gyokuro. There is no real substitute that I know of. The taste is not to be found among Chinese greens, and Chinese greens are high on my happy tea list.
Pu'erh can sell at $175.00 per gram. Is that in the league? The Gyokuro market as you describe it is new to me.
I'll bet you're wrong. I'll be there is a Mike Petro of Gyokuro, but not a public one.
All this is nothing more than my humble bunch of opinions.
My baseline would be penny/gram. I'll fork out $10/100g at my local tea shoppe because of payroll and rent. Tea is like oil. It should be free but too the extent it ain't...I also complain about the price of a ton of gravel from the local landscaping yard. Nature provides and we pay.
OK, I kinda re-read my own post and didn't like it myself I kinda got that impression from rereading it, so I figured others might take it that way.
It's not so with Gyokuro. There is a definite difference, and the crazy part is that the "fresh" stuff is actually the second grade! Which suckers a lot of people. That was the reason I quoted G&S. I will say though that there is a very small high end, a huge mid grade market (which includes almost all online product), and a smallish low-end (netto). So that is why I say to just be satisfied with the mid grade and forget the rest, you'll get the basic point and save yourself a ton of time and money and frustration.
There is a pronounced difference. But the taste, price, "mystery" and intrigue surrounding it is hype. I have never bought and brewed my own at the very high ends, I have always had the pleasure of being served it. I think it is more enjoyable that way. Owning it is a curse. It goes bad instantly (well not bad but not perfect after a short time no matter what is done), it is a bear to brew correctly, and the stress of screwing up $100 in one pop doesn't lead to any sense of balance or harmony or happiness for me :) Maybe to those who happily can play $100 slot machines, but me I prefer to play the $0.25 and splurge on the $1 slots. Basically you need to at least start on the mid grades to learn, then attempt to move into the ultra high end, but even then it is so different to brew that you will waste at least $200-400 learning. I guess to some that is worth it, just not me.
Also, since it isn't a daily tea, or even a tea to drink all that frequently it is hard to use it up before it turns no matter what, and it is a tea to enjoy as a special occasion. So it is almost better to just pay to have it served to you every now and then and let someone else deal with all the storage, brewing, and stress. At least I do.
Actually if you get a chance to try a high quality "Bird's Tongue" (I believe it translates to Que She) I think you will be surprised. Small leaves/buds very pale coloring and very close in taste.
Stupidly I forgot to mention the DJ industry/market/auction blows even Gyokuro away. I figured people would pounce on that. I've seen Gyokuro sell for what converts to close to $500 a gram, and have heard of a place in Japan for ultra elite where a single cup is about $1k but that is more for the "ambiance" and status/ego than the tea I'm sure.
Honestly I can't see how. The Japanese aren't real receptive to that kind of thing, especially with things like this. I had a friend (the one I spoke about earlier) who has been part of the tea business for 4 generations, is 100% Japanese, and he was so low on the totem pole he was damn near the footer holding the totem pole up. I just can't see how it could be done, but hey the reigning Sumo champ is a black dude from Chicago and he has been adopted as a national symbol... so I guess it could be done. I just kind of like to keep my pinky finger, and don't really want to get into the Yakuza just to score some primo tea... it kinda goes against my philosophy of tea just a wee bit ;)
Hey its all good, I always enjoy your opinions... I just would like to get the chance to speak in person instead of text where I think it would be a hundred times easier. Like I said there may be a place or two to get top end Gyokuro online, but I have yet to find one. And honestly I'm cool with that, I enjoy the small amounts I buy each year just fine and I'm just as happy.
Well, maybe, but I think you realize that if you could remove the public-spirited urge to share information from Mike Petro's character, he wouldn't be Mike any more.
That would be a quality level of Long Jing, not a type of tea in and of itself, if I'm not mistaken, which I could be. That said, LJ and Gyokuro have different profiles. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
I read every word of your post, snipping most of it here for brevity. You speak much about cost and value, cultural values vis-a-vis money, and so on, but you speak not one single word about your experience with the extraordinarily high quality -- albeit not the *highest* quality -- Gyokuro that others have served you. You have not offered any comments about the taste, the aroma, the difference between these and those of lesser breeds. I can only assume that this is all a big to-do about nothing at all. One more try, though: Tell us about how this tea struck you, what it tasted like, what it smelled like, how it opened and how it finished, its aftertaste, its effect on mouth, throat, and body. Make me feel the tea as I read. Beyond that, all is trash. Well, pulp anyway.
I'm not a specialist in Chinese greens, I have had a number of "bird's tongue" green and they have all been very similar. They are not roasted/nutty like LJ. What I have brews a very light cup, that is sweet, has a very low astringency, and is very pale. FWIW
I was not trying to be wordy without really saying anything... I do have a tendency to do that though. I also am not a technician who has that wonderful ability to describe tastes with words like a beautiful piece of art... but I will try. And anyone who has enjoyed Gyokuro knows it is very subtle... making it even harder to do.
The brew is a very pale almost non-existant color, the taste is subtle and not grassy nor roasty/nutty like LJ. It kind of reminds me of a very delicate Pi Lo Chun if I had to come up with something... light, sweet, maybe a bit vegetal. It is more of a feeling to me than a flavor, as strange as that may seem. That was the part I meant by the focus and intensity required.
The Gyokuro's I have tried from online vendors are more like a higher end green tea like a sencha/bancha but less harsh and not grassy or as pronounced. It is certainly Gyokuro, just not as subtle and nuanced.
The bottom line to me is that while I really enjoy it, even mid-grades, it just never fits the bill as a daily enjoyable tea for me. That is more the issue than the price, availability, or anything else. Brewing Gyokuro correctly requires a lot of leaf, 2 *tablespoons* of tea to 4 oz. of water is not unheard of. It is good for 2-3 infusions. That's expensive. I tend to brew it around 130F sometimes upwards of 140F, this is one tea I use a thermometer for. To me the hype I spoke of is not the price and stuff but the real lack of anything that is going to bowl you over when drank... it just doesn't happen. It's subtle, it's finicky, it's hard to store and really useless to even try, and it is hard to get. That just doesn't lend itself to an enjoyable tea in my book.
Hopefully that was more along the lines of what you were after. I've been extremely busy at work so this took some time to actually finish... sorry for the wait.
I believe bird's tongue is an older way to describe one kind of Longjing that is less used these days. Another such term is "spear and flag". It has to do with the shape of the leaves. I can still find a HK teashop in the old style that sells them based on those categories instead of the grades that are now common.
What is the shape of the leaf? Or is this a shapeshifting tea? Hehe. is tea struck you, what it tasted like, snip snip snip
Very good indeed. Your description put taste in my mouth. I get it much better now. I also get the "more...feeling...than...flavor" thing. That speaks highly of the tea, not strange at all.
I've gotten butter and astringency from Gyokuros, and I mean both in the best possible way. Another source of pleasure is the beauty of those yellow- green leaves floating on the water in a black or even a white kyusu. (Mine are white.) No Chinese tea hits quite that rich deep color, even the best Long Jing I've drunk.
Nor for me.
Smart. You want to get it just right. I've gone as low as 125F, but 130-140 sounds right. I've heard of people brewing it off the boil, and would like to learn more from that point of view.
All your points, especially the storage issue, are well taken, believe me. It's one of the reasons why, if I can, I buy my Gyokoru by the gram.
No problem. I just thought that the description of the taste/smell/qi experience was the missing piece of your orgiinal posts.
[Michael]
[Dominic]
[MarshalN]
[Michael] I am given to believe that this form of Long Jing is exceptional quality, and that those who demand it are as concerned with the look of the leaf as they with the taste and aroma. I've read descriptions of how each leaf set is expected to float (or sink) in the water.
This idea of the look of the leaf is not lost on me. If tea is a *total* sensual esxperience -- No, don't go there! -- I'd say the look of the leaf is pretty damned important.
Now, off to tea with a couple bare breasted drunken concubines. (That's poetic in Chinese, you know.)
*whew* thank goodness... you're a tough one to please :) I feel like I'm turning in homework when I respond to you... I gotta make sure I flesh out my thoughts with detail and examples and footnotes ;) I'll turn in the bibliography tomorrow if that is OK.
I had just kind of thought most people have tried Gyokuro at least and had some frame of reference. The higher you go in quality there is almost less and less to it up front in taste and that makes it hard to describe for me. Also, if I had some in front of me right now I can describe it much easier... I actually am good at describing what I feel and taste while I'm at it... but to recall from years ago (the last I really was into the high end Gyokuro) is a bit tough.
The bird's tongue I have is very small very pale green leaves that truly look like little bird tongues (almost little spade shapes that roll inward like a tongue). The taste is not of Gyokuro for sure... it is just a nice alternative which is what I was trying to say. It has more to do with the pale color of the leaves I think mentally for me and the nice sweet subtle flavor.
I never use the word "buttery" when describing tea, but I see many that do. I can see how it relates and as far as astrigency goes I think that is the main difference between quality of Gyokuro. The mid-lower grades tend to be moreso, and just a bit more flavor and that is what makes them *less* desirable to me.
This thread has forced me to now want some even though I have strict rules where I keep myself to one purchase of Gyokuro a year when it is freshest... so out my Visa card goes. I'm going to try Itoen, O-cha, and hibiki-an. I have never tried a few of their offerings so I'm going to... it'll be a Christmas present to myself... although I promised to not buy any more tea until we work through a lot of what we have. Dog house, here I come!
DrinksForum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.