Let's get divalent

I would like you to please tell me how the salts among other minerals, added AFTER the fact are not simply enhancing the flavors present just as in my example. You want to discredit my criticism of this theory, but you have not directly refuted it. And if you reject that as a fair appraisal of the argument, then the only option left to "explain" DogMa's theory is exactly the same as the theories behind homeopathy. Better yet, since it is not your "discovery," I would love to have Dogma attempt to clear this up.

I knew that anyone who could back DogMa's original statements had to have some connection or belief in homeopathy because that was what it was all basically based around. I'm not bashing that belief, I don't personally lend it any credence. I also do not want to cast stones, but while Peter Farley may be smart... I would believe he is cashing in on a big payday based on the "in" thing right now. There is a lot of money to be made in homeopathy and selling proven ancient remedies for a massive windfall. Especially when I can go to my local chinese herb shop and have them make me a remedy for pennies that actually contains the ingredients in a decent quantity that are believed to help the situation, not less of them for many dollars. Smart, yes. Businessman, yes. Greatest mind of our time, not in my eyes. I am not interested in arguing or drawing this out much more than it already has been, I will respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that. I saw through this whole thing from the beginning, I am just speaking my mind and I am more than willing to hear your side as objectively as possible.

- Dominic Drinking: Brewing some loose leaf Pu-Erh as I type.

I didn't mean to start an argument; just share a possibly useful observation and suggest some possibly interesting explanations.

I never claimed to be the discoverer of the putative effect, except on a personal basis. And please be more moderate in your generalizations ("the only option") and imputations. I consider homeopathy to be bunkum as a methodology beyond the undeniable placebo effect. I thought I had offered a pair of plausible inferences: salts as flavor potentiators via modified chemical transduction at the taste buds, modification of local neurochemistry, and/or cortex-level synthesis. The part I found most interesting was the persistence effect. To address this, I further proposed that ions may be stored in taste-related tissues - nothing mystical about that, and lots of scientists probably already know if this is the case..

I am not offended, but you are incorrect.

-DM

Let's ignore, for the moment, the very surprising post-brew result. If adding small quantities (the exact quantities we aren't sure of yet) of certain minerals to brewing tea makes it taste better, then maybe those - what, Mongolian? - rocks some people put in their kettles actually help. They release *some* amount of minerals in hot water, right? It's a question of amount, isn't it?

/Lew

I've always felt if I could taste an eyedrop of something on my tongue I could taste it certainly in a cup of tea. Tea is a magnifier of taste. If I can taste a drop of mineral water on my tongue I can taste it in the tea but not enough to make a wager on clinical trials. It maybe the whatever is still suspended in solution and just registers on the tastebuds more than binding to the chemical components of tea. I don't think a chemical analysis of a tea brew will even mean it tastes good.

Jim

Lewis Per>

No argument, just discussion. I actually may have come off too strong, I try to really filter my statements because it is hard to show true intention and inflection by simply typing. If we had been sitting in te same room discussing this it would have been conversational and a bit lively... but far from an argument in my mind. I like to hear peoples theories and thoughts, regardless if I believe them 100% or not. Sharing ideas and thoughts is always #1 to me, I would never want to stop discussion or prevent someone fro speaking their mind. Heck, even if you were a believer in homeopathy and were applying a similar theory here... I'd listen and accept your theory... I just wouldn't agree with it.

I never stated that you had claimed this, it was just the direction it seemed to be going especially in the conversation with Alex about your theory. That was why I was hoping you would revisit the topic and make your true intentions known. That was all. I'm sorry if my "only option" comment seemed harsh, but basically those are the only two options. Salts as flavor potentiators is what I had mentioned, and is known fact. And then the neuro/cortex side of things (I thought) fell into the homeopathic beliefs. I'm sure there are others such as you have stated, but from the initial proposal that was what I had taken away from it.

I never intended to offend anyone, but that comment was directed to Alex. I actually left my comment quoted above, if you reread it I think it was clear. For someone (not you) to so heavily back this as a "discovery" of any magnitude would have to fall into believing in the second half of the neural/cortex/persistence side of things. And it turned out I was basically right, since I had no knowledge of Alex or his work/colleagues and pretty much nailed it. I was just reading between the lines about the comments made about your statement, not you or your statement directly.

Hope that clears things up a bit, I like open discussion and always enjoy it... so please don't take this side discussion as a negative thing, also I don't want to derail the actual discussion in any way.

- Dominic

Making a stab at this here...

Apparently some people only call nucleotides etc. "flavor potentiaors" and salt in this definition weouldn't be because it's a flavor by itself (in other words, some people define flavor potentiator as something which enhances flavor but has no flavor or smell profile of it's own). I only bring this up becuase it would indicate a difference between salt and sugar which have flavor, and MSG or nucleotides which are primarily acting as potentiators (I'll give you the source for all this babble at the end of the post). Anyhow...

So in this case the minerals may act as extraction helpers or extraction impactors more precisely.

And here the minerals acting as flavor potentiaotrs (I think Na, Ca and K ions mostly) are presumably acting to trigger the neuronal gateway receptors in the tastebuds...but if so, not just for salty or bitter but for the other layers. Also I'd like to point out that there are still microscopic particles of tea steeping in the brew even then, and the minerals could be continuing to affect the extraction there. Not to mention the minerals combining with the substances already extracted in the brew.

I was thinking about this...if a person gets tickled in the same spot repeatedly they get desensitized, the neurons learn a new threashold for stimulus, wouldn't the same hold true for taste? Actually, I don't know if that wording is correct...I'd be more inclined to think that the processing center for the neurons in the brain reaches a new threshold for knowing what senseory level is important, since the actual polarity across neuronal boundaries stays pretty steady in neurons after repolarization. What I mean is that there is a build up of difference in charge up to the point of the neuron firing but once it's gone back to it's er, base state (not very good terminology) it's usually around -70 mv polarity, even if the nerve itself has fired millions of times over the lifetime of the person or whatever.

So what does all that mean...perhaps the minerals aren't so much remaining in the receptor cells as cluing in the brain that there are other tastes to be had in the tea, and the brain is keeping that impression over alternating infusions. The brain would have an impetus to do this as it is better to be more aware about taste in something than dull.

Couple of websites that I looked at for relevant info:

Very very intersting, thanks for the discussion.

Melinda

I think you should use 1/10 of the time you spend explaining that you did not want to offend anyone on actual digging up the science. Your opinion on homeopathy is childish at best. You have not "nailed" anything, its an illusion on you part. For you, who has done nothing in any science, to accuse a giant like Peter Farley who considered to be one of the fathers of the whole genetic revolution of our times of "cashing in" on anything is just a demonstration that you cannot be taken seriously.

I called what DogMa described a "discovery" because the minute details of his experiments:

1. Look quite unusual to me and although I am not a food chemist I do have an advanced degree in geochemistry and 12 years in biochem and biotech.
2. Useful.

I did not call it 'scientific discovery' because its a different test.

Sasha.

Lew -

As we discussed earlier, I doubt that these rocks can give away even micrograms or coupe of milligrams of any "material" in their current usage. That was, as I pointed out to you during our last meeting, my opinion as a geochemist. However, as I noted then, the presence of mica in these rocks allow for some very unusual microchemistry and DogMa's experiments now open door to a more positive opinion on the existance of such effect. Another possibility would be the presence of titanomagnetite, which, under certain conditions can be a very good absorber (or attractor) of H+ ion, thus being a mediator of pH. Not that I claim that this is how it happens. I am planning to have a better look at "the rock" and make a thin section of it in addition to big geochem panel. I just need to find a place for it in my current work :)

Sasha.

Another possibility well-known to water geochemists si the ability of glassy substances to attract certain ions. I remember we had an enigmatic situation when certain volcanic waters showed quite a quantity of Ni ion when tested fresh out of the crater springs and almsot none after being transferred to the statinary lab in glass bottles. We found later that the surface of these glass bottles was attracting/absorbing the Ni ions after several days of storage a good percent of Ni ions woild magically disappear. Certainly we are talking about micrograms here.

Sasha.

I am not one to appologize normally for simply speaking my mind, and I am actually sorry I tried to. There is no science at hand here, you state so in your quote "I did not call it 'scientific discovery' because its a different test." It is a basic theory with little to no science involved at all. I managed to read betwen the lines and figure out your ties to homeopathy without it even being mentioned directly, yeah, I nailed that. It was quite apparent.

If we are speaking about the same Peter Farley (of Peter Farley, Where Were You Before the Tree of Life?) Then I unappologetically will state he is a kook, a whack job, and so far removed from a great mind of our time that it would place him out with the aliens he so believes in. I have spent a large amount of my life in studies of true great thinkers from all eras, and as humbly as possible consider myself a very intelligent individual. I graduated #1 in my college class, hold national awards, have a mensa level IQ, a member of four national honor's societies, and two degrees of my own.

I really have no more time for this and we are far removed from tea, if you would like to discuss any of this further, please email me and I would be glad to. If there is anything I am sorry for, it is ever getting involved in this thread.

Good night,

- Dominic

Jesus, man, do you ever listen? You are a programmer, can you use Google at least? That does not require high IQ, anyone can use it. I stated it clear from the first time - Peter Farley the founder of Cetus. Haven't you read the "History of Biotechnology"?

(3155 The book is about Cetus. Cetus was THE first biotech company, THE largest IPO of all times, inventors of PCR (you know what PCR is, don't you?) and Peter Farley founded it.

My connection to homeopathy is zero - (I wish it was not) - I work with Farley on a completely different project - mathematically calculated synthetic vaccines that were pioneered by Bio-Virus Research Inc. that I founded and own (do a search on US Patents with my last name). However, as a scientist, I know that scientific explanation does not warrant truth and the lack of such an explanation does not warrant the lack of such. As an example I always use the aspirin. Do you know that we still do not know how aspirin works?

Farley and Dr. Diamond currently developed a treatment that almost completely alleviate the suffering of AZT-taking AIDS patients based on their whole new set of medical approached that combine homeopathy and Chinese herbal medicine. You may not believe this "quackery" but South African government distribute it all over their AIDS hospitals, but you right - what do they know? They are not MENSA members... But wait, I was! But what did I do with my MENSA membership? I remember wiping something with it, but what? Well, may be Farley's being a member of Reagan's "Technology Cabinet" for 8 years will qualify him? No? Being one of the founders of "Young Presidents Club"? No? Being the first MD with MBA from Stanford? No?

Sasha.

snip snip

Hi Sasha!

I'm proud to say that I work right now with, and side-by-side with, some of the dullest minds of our times, whose identity I will protect, as far as syntax allows. I fail to see how Dominic's tomato example is erroneous or not relevant. The original contention, in simple language, is that adding a spot of mineral water will noticably enhance the taste of tea; the contention of the tomato example is that a spot of salt or sugar on the tomato will enhance the taste of said tomato; a good enough analogy for me and my friends described above.

Michael

[Sasha] [dogma]

I suggest the 15 year old Laphroig (sp? -- I know, I know). Michael

Lewis snipped-for-privacy@panix1.panix.com3/7/06 10: snipped-for-privacy@panix.com

A certain Sasha sitting at a certain table in the presence of a certain person suggested that the rocks impart nothing to the water. Nothing. I however like the way they shine and the way they clink and dance when the water boils, so I'm cool one way or the other.

I've consulted my friends whom I mentioned earlier on, and they seem to find the whole question of whether the minerals from the mineral water affect the tastebuds, affect the chemistry of the tea liquor, or affect the mind to be less than significant. The reason homeopathy doesn't work on me is because I think the whole principle is nonsense, and I've read nothing to change my mind.

Michael

Hi Michael!

I'm proud to say that I *am* one of the dullest minds of our times. Chiming in from that position (i.e, the bottom of the IQ heap), here's my idiot's guide to the play-by-play:

1. Sasha said he'd like some evidence that adding minerals after extraction is known to enhance perceived flavor.

1. Dominic offered the example of salting a tomato.

2. Sasha correctly pointed out that salting a tomato is evidence only of adding electrolytes *prior* to extraction, because until the saliva hits the tomato, nothing has yet been extracted. Sasha wrote: "Adding salt to tomato enhance the perceived flavor by (among other things) adding electrolites into water-based extraction process (what do you think salive is for?) So it is nit AFET, APRE, POST adding."

Obviously English is not Sasha's first or second language -- or, maybe he drinks a lot...I don't know -- so we have to make allowances for his spelling and syntax, but his posts are worth a close reading/translation because, in the end, their content is excellent.

OJ

Note: No Mensa members have been harmed during the composition of this message!

Nah, the reason homeopathy doesn't work on you is because you haven't availed yourself of the professional services of a classical homepath. No belief is required.

Whether it's nonsense or not, I can't say, but I know that homeopathy has been extremely effective on my animal companions (dogs, cats, horses) over the decades, and they don't believe in anything but dinner.

OJ

Oh snipped-for-privacy@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com3/8/06

08:42yah_you snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com

Oh, Jeez!

I am pleased to say that Sasha and I are friends, and I do not take his posts lightly, that is any more lightly than my limited intelligence requires. I realize there are subtleties to the arguments. I also believe that, for the sake of this discussion, "perceived" in each of its several meanings is the operable word. As for Sasha's first language or his drinking habits, he will have to make note himself. (Clearly I'm more comfortable with Dog Ma's tentative conclusions than with the discussion regarding the deeper science of the matter. If I "perceive" correctly, some of the argument hinges on his use of that word.)

I said I would refrain from commenting further until I've completed my own experiment set, but I obviously lied.

Michael

(3155

I am not a programmer, I am a Network/System Administrator. Programming is a small subset of my work. I was wrong then, I didn't spend time researching if they were the same guy just because of a silly newsgroup argument... I really don't care that much. The only Peter Farley that stuck out in my mind was the one I mentioned. I was wrong, I am capable and happy to admit it.

I am not doubting your level of intelligence, or your scientific background... it just has no bearing on this. I am in no way questioning these things, but thanks for the resume, it is impressive and I am sure you are successful. I have never claimed I do not believe in home remedies/chinese herbs/regular herbs/etc. in fact I routinely rely on herbs to help in certain situations and they always do. Riccola, Tiger Balm, and many more. I am even working with my father to see if Pu-Erh tea can truly lower his cholesterol level in an effort to get him off of Lipitor. I believe aspirin has many beneficial properties and it is derived from nature (the willow tree). However true homeopathy states that the less of something is the most effective, to the point of complete absense. That is selling snake oil. Make sure you understand the real story behind homeopathy, not just the accepted definition of natural cures... they are two majorly different things. Take Zicam for instance, it is Zinc and salt. The salt dries up the mucus and the zinc has been debated as far as its properties, people believe it works and who knows it really may. However it contains massive amounts of zinc, if it were a true homeopathic remedy it would contain almost none at all if any... that is my problem with homeopathy. Selling essentially air for money.

Again, many very smart people have gone down wrong paths and spent massive amounts of time and efforts on unproven and later debunked ideas. No one is outside of that, Einstein, Edison, and even your beloved Mr. Farley (the correct one this time). No one is ever that smart, to never be wrong. You can dismiss MENSA all you want, it is quite common for a lot of people to do... nothing new to me. Why do you harbor such hatred and resentment towards the organization? It is actually pretty meaningless and there have been many members who were murders, psychos, and nut-jobs, but they all had high IQ's. IQ is not a major measure of intelligence in my eyes, and my mention of it was to just show that I hadn't just fell of the turnip truck either. I have family members in scientific and medical backgrounds and also personal interests that I pursue, including one of the countries top Neurosurgeons. Fancy degrees and status do not impress or mean much to me, I have learned some of my most valuable lessons from common, everday people. My grandfather, mother, a small asian grocery owner, among others.

Again, we have drifted so far off target and the thread is most likely not recoverable now for the initial intent, so I will respecfully end this now. I am not angry at you nor harbor any resentment, and I am more than open to speaking with you further about any number of topics... and as always you are welcome to email me anytime. I honestly mean that, not being a smart-ass.

Take Care,

- Dominic Drinking: getting ready to brew some Dragonwell

Oh snipped-for-privacy@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com3/8/06

08:47yah_you snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com

No, I haven't. But, I've attended lectures given by classic homeopaths who chose not to share those homeopathic principles that lead to the "the water remembers" idea. With all due respect, I sincerely *believe* it's all done with smoke and mirrors.

I'm the last one who has the right to ask this, but... What quantitative data do you have to support your contention that homeopathy has been extremely effective? Reputable scientists, such perhaps as yourself are subject to bouts of subjectivity that require very careful analysis to tease out. That's why psychic phenomena studies often appear valid until proven otherwise.

Michael