Let's get divalent

This post concerns water and tea. Allow me to begin with an analogical digression.

Several decades ago, as a pre-professional nerd, I read that sugar is critical in many foods not as a source of sweetness per se, but as a flavor potentiator like unto salt or MSG. This seemed possibly relevant to the consuming problem of rapid flavor decay in so-called Juicy Fruit gum. So I took a wad of post-sapid chicle, wrapped it around a pinch of table sugar, and was astonished to find it entirely revivified. Fortunately for Wrigley's fortunes (and my remaining teeth), I was too lazy to make this a regular practice, and none of my cohort expressed interest in such a life-extension methodology.

Back to tea: I keep being disappointed on home-brewing rare and fine wonders that delighted in-store or at others' homes. Water is clearly a factor, most likely due to absence of needed solutes rather than presence of contaminants. But I'm too lazy and cheap to schlep gallons of bottled solvent, and also (after several years in the UK) averse to de-scaling the kettle. So of late, I've been trying some post-brew experiments. These have taken the form of adding a dash of bottled water to the gaiwan before dousing with hot tap water. I use mineral rather than spring water, to get a good slug of ions in the small addendum.

This has worked pretty well. So far, I've used Gerolsteiner, which may not be an optimal mineral balance. (It is, however, the only one available here in the woods.) It's still less than convenient, and makes it that bit harder to control brewing temperature.

So recently I've tried adding mineral water to the finished brew. This goes against common wisdom about the effect of various solutes (including oxygen) on extraction chemistry. -Common wisdom, I might add, absent widely published evidence. Thus far, the effect has been just as beneficial. Today, for example, I brewed a sample of Old Dong Ting from NYC's wonderful Tea Gallery. (Disclosure: commercial connection; I spend money there at every opportunity.) This exquisite tea went "flat" after just three steeps in tap water. Adding a few ml of mineral water to the poured cup added/restored multiple layers of sweetness, fruit, complexity. And seemed to smooth over hints of roughness, somehow bringing the smoke/roast into better balance with more intrinsic leaf notes. (Kind of like the difference between 10- and 15-year-old Laphroaig, for those of that persuasion.) I took out five more very tasty steeps before going out to grease the Kioti.

Now, here's the punch line: the bio-effect of a little added mineral water seemed to persist. I alternated "spiked" and tap-water brews, rinsing the cup between, and found them almost indistinguishable. Perhaps this shouldn't be surprising: calcium is a dominant mediator of cellular and neural activity, and charging the taste buds and proximal tissue with divalent ions might have a persistent effect. Any biologists here able to comment?

Anyway, the provisional conclusion: a very small addition of minerals can apparently have a profound, persistent and positive effect on perceived quality in brewed tea, without much effort. Your mouthfeel may vary.

-DM

Reply to
DogMa
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Without all that scientific stuff, this very same thing was told to me by an old man in the Sichuan province. He said the reason people like to use natural "mountain" water (shan quan shui) is because it's filled with many different types of minerals, and it's the minerals that bring out the tea's flavor more. Very interesting stuff.

Reply to
Mydnight

I have no idea whatsoever about anything written about by the OP, in fact I'm still confused... but I have found that PA spring water always turns out the best tea over my other alternatives.

As far as odd Juicy Fruit experiments and swishing of mineral water, etc.... I still am at a loss for a point to all of that.

- Dominic

Reply to
Dominic T.

You could try some sugar, too! :-)

Ian

Reply to
Ian Rastall

My point was that those whose tap water is too pure to make good tea don't have to bring home a lot of spring water with a slight mineral content. Instead, a small addition of "mineral water" may work just as well - even if added to brewed tea (rather than the kettle). The preamble was to suggest a mechanism: flavor potentiation, rather than an effect on the chemistry of extraction.

-DM

Reply to
DogMa

I guess I understand, I'm unsure if you are just making things overly complex on purpose or are on about something over my head. If you are basically saying that people using "pure" water should just add a tiny amount of a spring water or water containing minerals to their pure water *after* it has been boiled to gain a flavor "enhancement" then we are on the same page... but I'm still unsure of the theory.

Traditionally mountain spring water was used, and I just keep with that whenever I can as it does produce a better brew... however, I would be at a loss to say I could nail it if I were given a blind test. I would think it exactly the same with your proposed theory. I would highly doubt anyone would tell the difference between the "pure" water and the one with a splash of mineral water added in at the end.

If anything I think truly pure water would produce the perfect reproduction of the tea leaf being brewed. Just properly oxygenated pure water. Water is the one area of tea that I tend to not fret over. Unless it has some overt foul or strong taste on it's own, I find that all but the most delicate of teas are going to shine through on their own merit. But that's just me, and I have no scientific nor Juicy Fruit experiments to back my claims up ;)

- Dominic

Reply to
Dominic T.

It is my understanding that TDS directly relates to mineral content in the water.

I find this most interesting as I am getting 2 sample bottles of Spring Water delivered from a local bottling company. Shenandoah Spring Water has a TDS of 92ppm and Mountain Valley Spring Water has a TDS of 268ppm. I plan on doing side by side testing using the same tea to see if I can tell the difference. The winner will be delivered to me every month.

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The next question is which tea will make the best litmus paper...

-- Mike Petro

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Reply to
Mike Petro

Well, the tap water is not wonderful, but it tends to be much more loaded in minerals than most spring waters. I guess not all minerals have the same effect. What about the ph of the water ?

In old times, salt was added to tea. Maybe for that reason.

Kuri

Reply to
kuri

Tap water around here is also loaded with chlorine. I use a Brita pitcher for my tea water, which seems to work pretty well.

Ian

Reply to
Ian Rastall

Hi -

Missed you this time of my visiting NY and Tea Gallery. The idea of mineral water being added to already brewed tea is very interesting. The majority of the replies seem to miss the fact that seem the most important to me - that opposite to adding minerals during brewing this method cannot influence the extraction. So, it may improve 1. taste mediation or (my current thinking) 2. increase dissoacoative properties of water as a solvent and thus prevent the formation of chemical complexes and therefore help "presenting" the extracts to the tastebuds in a better way. Or both. One way or another - it would be interesting to study the chemistry and biomediation of these post-brew additives. May also be a serious contribution not only to tea but to drinks in general and may be even food.

Good job, DogMa xian sheng.

Sasha.

Reply to
Alex Chaihorsky
[dog ma speaks of dabbing in a bit of mineral water to rejuvenate and inspire his cup]

snip

Extraordinary. I LOVE that Old Dong Ting, it's so rich and roasty and balanced and friendly. I'm going to try your mineral water experiment first thing.

Putting the technical chemistry aside because it ain't my thing, are you saying that you added a bit of mineral water *once* and its effect persisted through steeps, even after rinsing? That the bit of mineral water affected the tea leaves *and* your tastebuds? Anyway, I'll be experimenting soon.

"Perceived," eh? Well that's good enough.

Michael

Reply to
Michael Plant

Yes, especially the latter - it worked even when added mineral water never touched the leaves. Implication: remanent effect on tongue physiology and/or mental construction of taste experience.

-DM

Reply to
DogMa

I think the effect you describe is very clear and has been documented a lot in the last hundred years or so. You can read what Escoffier says about how table salt affects other flavours besides just saltiness.

Try a pinch of baking powder, sea salt, or Burton Water Salts.

Also note that tea made with deionized water is pretty insipid. I tried that once or twice here (my office has very nasty-tasting water but we have a supply of distilled water).

--scott (who misses Vichy water)

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Yes, but not in a very useful way. TDS says that if you evaporate the water, this is how much residue you'll have left. It doesn't say anything about the contents of that residue.

It could be salts that make the water hard, or other salts that make the water soft. There's a huge variation in the different minerals that get dissolved in waters.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

Scott -

The fact that high mineral content helps EXTRACTION is well known and DogMa, I am sure, is quite knowledgeable of that. The fact that adding tiny amount of salts (literally micrograms) in any form to ALREADY BREWED TEA noticeably benefits its taste is not at all well known and if you can provide references to that it would be very helpful. However, please, notice that we are talking here strictly about adding such AFTER the extraction, not before or during.

The ability of salt to improve and affect other flavors is attributed to its ability to make water a better solvent and EXTRACT such flavors during cooking or chewing, but I never saw any references to salt or mineral content measured in micrograms to affect the taste of the solution AFTER extraction

Sasha.

Reply to
Alex Chaihorsky

I have no references specifically regarding tea. But it's fairly well established that adding salt, for instance, changes the existing flavour of a dish. Escoffier's _Modern Cookery_ might be one of the first places this is mentioned.

I don't think it _does_ make water that much more efficient. And I can certainly say that it does nothing to keep pasta from sticking either, in spite of the common wisdom about it doing so.

I'm not sure we're talking about micrograms here, though. I think we are talking about milligrams, if not more. The actual volume of salts in some mineral waters is quite high, to the point where Vichy, for example, actually tastes smooth and almost salty.

--scott

Reply to
Scott Dorsey

I say that again and again - adding electrolites BEFORE OR DURING EXTRACTION is a well established technique. Chemists know that and know how to measure that effect. Not so with adding electrolites AFTER, "APRE", POST - factum. How can I illustrate this so we don't go back to this again? We all know that giving antibiotics to someone who has a bad case of pneumonia can save his life. Does that also mean that we won't be surprised if injecting pennicyllin into a corpse would revive the dead? Because that is what we have here - apparent improvement of extraction (or its perception) AFTER the extraction is already finished and solution is separated from

Its not about what we _think_, its a scientific fact. Open any textbook on water-based extraction and catalisis and find out. The dissociative quality of water. i.e its ability to break up molecules of solids or in another words - dissolve matter using HOH dipole is a well-established fact. Chemistry is a science, not opinion. In this case we may be dealing with very fine effects of electrolytes being able to break up very complex (they are even called - "complexes" organic makromolecules or agglomerates and thus improve the perception of taste. Another compound that may have similar effect is alchohol. It would be interesting if DogMa compares the effects of adding few mililitres of mineral water and tiny amount of alchohol to the same flat brew and compare the results. Alchohol also dramatically improves dissociative properties of water, expecially when it comes to organic extraction. That is why, BTW, almost all perfumes and medical potions are alchohol -based.

Sasha.

Reply to
Alex Chaihorsky

I think we all understand that, however I think you are trumping this up a bit too much. Adding salt (or sugar) to a tomato after it has been picked enhances its flavors, now salt (or sugar) wasn't added during the growing process but AFTER, APRE, POST - factum and it has enhanced the flavor.

Again, and as I said from the beginning, none of this seems new or groundbreaking to me. I think it much ado about nothing. I don't say that in a mean or demeaning way, and I certainly do not mean to offend... but I think that no matter how you come at this, it comes back to one of two ideas:

1.) The tomato example from above, where the flavor has been enhanced after the fact.

or

2.) Homeopathy, where the least amount of some substance is supposed to have the greatest effect. And to the point of complete absense being the "best."

I believe in the former as homeopathy makes no logical or scientific sense. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

- Dominic Drinking: Pu-Erh Tuocha (2nd infusion)

Reply to
Dominic T.

Adding salt to tomato enhance the perceived flavor by (among other things) adding electrolites into water-based extraction process (what do you think salive is for?) So it is nit AFET, APRE, POST adding.

First of all it was not I who discovered this (and I use the word discovery without hesitation), but DogMa. Second - tomato example has nothing to do witth this - see above. Third - I would not even touch homeopathy as an argument here precisely because its mechanism were never understood or even expalined - that is why allopaths (the "normal" doctors) still make an argument that homeopathy is cookery and until today it is not accepted by AMA as "scientific" medicine and that is why your insurance company never pays for homeopathic treatments.

I happen to work right now side-by-side with one of the greatest minds of our times - the guy who founded Cetus Corp and under whose supervision the PCR was invented for which Cetus scientists recei\ved 1992 Nobel prize. His name is Peter Farley and guess what he does after all that spectacular success? He leads a company that combines homeopathic approach with traditional Chinese medicine. And as opposed to your 2 cents this is multi-million dollar effort.

Sasha.

Reply to
Alex Chaihorsky

Pretty good (hic). Does 90% alcohol sound about right?

Reply to
DogMa

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