The Art of Tea, Issue #2

I haven't seen your magazine yet, but if your website is any indicaton, I'm disappointed in your proofreading skills (or lack thereo).

The title on your website's home page says "Atr of Tea Magazine..." and it goes downhill from there. Perhaps you could get someone who's familiar with English to vet your content and correct all the errors?

And by the way, titles of publications can't be copyrighted.

Good luck!

First of all, it is highly ironic that you should also suffer a proofreading error ("thereo") when criticizing this company for a similar fault. Second, I fail to see how "it all goes downhill from there," as I find it to be remarkably well written considering its foreign origin. I'm sure you could pick out a couple errors here and there, but it is hardly unreadable, and I have certainly found worse English on websites maintained by native English speakers.

Anyway, I don't mean to stir up a flame war, I just thought I'd defend what I have heard to be a respectable publication against trifling objections.

Ha :o) I always find it hilarious when people get really annoyed with misspellings, I've got a few friends who are like that with Grammar etc and they get really fired up if you even pronounce something wrong... they can't help it really it's just a certain type of person and it always makes me laugh (which they hate!). But hey imagine if we didn't have people like that around... language would indeed go to the dogs (woof).

Good on ya 'Oh Geez'? for pointing out a few errors but maybe you should have sat down with a cuppa tea first, calmed down and then posted something a little more constructively critical... and maybe directly to them?

Jon :o)

Your prices on ebay are insane. Don't mean to stir up trouble, but more than 20 bucks for '07 ripe pu'er? I could get 1 'tong' for that much.

Mydnight, we don't sell any tea. We are just a publishing house.

Marshal, could you give me a page # for the mistake in the reference album? We are currently translating all three now: the 1998-2003, the

2004 and the 2005, and I cant find any Xiaguan toucha marked as Menghai. Perhaps it was fixed in an earlier edition. It would be very helpful if you could check your book and give me a page number, please. Also, if you've ever worked in the publishing industry you will know that it doesn't matter if the publication is weekly, monthly or quarterly, there is NEVER enough time, and you always get everything at the last minute.

Phyll, I am glad you are enjoying the second issue. Unfortunately, I wont be in California. I'm a volunteer, so no free airfare for me. However, I'm not positive but I think Aaron is going. If so, I would make a point of a finding him. Not only is he a very nice guy who knows a whole lot about tea, he'll most likely have a bunch of great old tea on him. Please feel free to let me know any of your questions or comments, or specific criticisms about the magazine. Though the second issue is, we feel, a dramatic improvement, there is of course still a lot of room to grow. One project we are working on, for example, is formalizing all the roman pinyin with Chinese characters next to it each time. This is difficult because Taiwanese have atrocious pinyin since they don't learn it as students. As any visitor could tell you, it changes from street sign to street sign and sometimes it doesn't even belong to any formal system. Again, the second issue improved in this area, but we hope to have a mainland editor soon that will formalize all the pinyin and put Chinese characters in the text. Also, I've heard that a few more American authors will be contributing to the third issue...

Hope you have a nice cup of tea today, Ethan Editor

P.S. thank you very much Shen

Ok, well whomever is selling the tea is selling it at ridiculous a pricing level. It's the "foreigners that don't know much about Chinese tea" pricing that I usually see when I try to contact a new vendor here on the mainland. Hell, even with that, I've not seen prices marked-up so high before.

Mydnight, To whom are you referring - Yunnan Sourcing on eBay? If so, I have to say that Scott's prices are most likely the lowest available from China and he is pretty straight-forward about quality......................perhaps, you might consider selling to us here in the states, if you can do better, we'd be curious and you may have a very competitive and successful eneterprise! And, actually, if you are referring to Scott at Yunnan Sourcing, most of us (his customers) do compare, shop around many are VERY knowlegable. He seems to be pretty reasonable overall. The prices for pu-erh to the states are going up. Shen

Ah, thank you! Now if vendors of Chinese teas could follow your lead, tea lovers who don't read Chinese might find out what they're drinking.

/Lew

I'd love to sell tea to you guys. Heck, if I had time, I'd just do a site in which I could just make cost. I could cut his prices in half not considering shipping.

Don't want to ruffle any feathers or anything, but it's true.

Indeed, but then it's not worth your time anymore, thus you won't do it.

MarshalN

I think it was fixed in later editions, but the fact that the first one got out the door with such a big error is, well... IIRC it was actually the "Profound world of Chi-tse" that made that mistake. I don't own the book, but somebody showed it to me before. It wasn't specific to one or two teas, but rather a dozen pages or so. I remember it was page 3xx to 3xx, but I can't remember specifically which ones. Basically, in the place where factory name is listed, Xiaguan was replaced with Menghai. I'm sure those will be fixed, since I think the issue was made a big deal by certain online forums in Chinese because the book cost a bundle and came with a number of errors. That said... I do hope that Wushing can generally do a better job in eliminating errors, first and foremost. It won't confuse anybody who already knows something, but it can really confuse beginners who don't know much of anything, and it also makes one wonder if some of the more obscure teas have the correct information printed on them. I hope you see why I am harping on this point.

A slightly related issue is that there were also a number of "mysteries" in those puerh facebooks. Sometimes the year listed as the production year is not the same as the year printed on a dapiao or a neifei pictured, with nary an explanation. In those cases, is it a typo? Is it deliberate? Is Wushing definitely right? Why is Wushing right and the manufacturer (or whoever it was) wrong? I know I was confused when I saw those contradictions, and I wasn't sure if that was resolved to anybody's satisfaction. Do you know anything about this, Ethan? If Wushing keeps the same issues in there, I can imagine a bunch of Western readers also being very confused for the very same reasons, and they have even less recourse than Chinese readers, who can at least march to their nearest tea market and figure it out with friends who might've seen or owned the stuff.

And yes, romanization needs to be standardized, no matter what system you use. Wade-Giles is fine so long as it's consistent, although pinyin would be preferred as it is what most people use these days. It's true that Taiwanese don't learn any sort of romanization when they were kids, but looking it up in a dictionary (or the MANY online dictionaries) is really not that difficult and must be done for a serious, professional publication like yours. Not having learned it before is no excuse for not doing it for something as simple as using the same romanization every time. It's sloppy editing/writing if somebody just makes it up on the fly and never bothers to check it to make sure it's right. If you are translating those facebooks then it is all the more imperative as many readers will not read much or any Chinese, and so any inconsistencies in romanization can have a profound impact on the readers' understanding of the teas concerned.

I know publishing is always under a deadline and last minute. That, however, never stops many, many periodicals from being entirely (or almost entirely) error free. I can't say the same of Wushing's works, at least among the stuff I've seen. When people depend on you for accurate, reliable information, I think it is only fair for the publisher to make sure they produce as few errors as possible. I hope Wushing will continue to improve their reliability.

MarshalN

My name is Aaron and I'm a senior editor here at The Art of Tea. I also wanted to share a few words:

When I started learning about tea, there weren't any websites or forums and only a small handful of books, and those were introductory. About 5 years ago, I was paying college students to translate books for me; the results were awful, broken-English messes, but I still studied them until my head ached. I understood that I was out to learn about another culture and that as such, the process would require patience.

I know that the world of English literature on tea has a long ways to go, but as was stated above, learning about an art that is all wrapped up in the language, history and culture of another people requires some tolerance. I wonder if you have even seen the 2 English magazines, Marshal? Read them? There might be some typos, and you're right when you state that there isn't any excuse for that, but a lot of people have spent a lot of time making sure that the information is correct, including the Chinese authors themselves. The second issue was a vast improvement over the first, and I for one choose to remain positive and continue to work on improving every aspect of this wonderful resource. Like Ethan said above, we aren't here to excuse mistakes. Some of us have a lot of experience working for various magazines and newspapers, and we know that tons of titles leave the press with little to no mistakes, but those publications have a complete staff of Western editors. My college newspaper had a staff of more than twenty. This project is the first of its kind. Information is passing through a minimum of two languages at the office. As Ethan said, the layout designers and programmers all don't speak English, and even the software itself is Chinese, so we've had to come up with a lot of unique problem-solving methods-- and some of this is coming as we move forward.

We need criticism. We need to know about the problems with the magazine, with articles and aspects of the content, etc. We need that kind of support. There's definitely a lot to be done. We want to have more Western participation, and I think our free tea gathering this summer is a gesture in that direction. Flaming and other puerile attempts to slander are deconstructive and only waste time. You can only hammer the 'typo' point in so far. You were making the same point at the release of the first issue before you saw it, and now I wonder if you have seen how much better the second is? I'm not trying to start a flame war or to put you down; I just wanted to be forthright and have an honest discussion about the negativity here. I'm baffled because to me an English magazine on tea with tons and tons of articles on all different aspects of the leaf is so indescribably awesome. And as the biggest Chinese publisher on tea in the world, with terabytes of photos and established relationships with the world's most renowned teachers, it only makes sense that Wushing handle the first ever English magazine on Asian tea art. Furthermore, now that I've been around some expos, shops and gatherings let me tell you that 100% of the thousands of readers we already have are also positive like me. Many of them have criticism, and many have recognized some of the problems you have here called attention to; but they were all happy to be reading about tea in English-- happy enough to not lose any sleep over the fact that a word is misspelled. My point? Well, I guess what I'm saying is that there are a lot of people here who feel that there is more than money or careers at stake-- there's a lot of genuine desire to share and help others enjoy something that brings great enjoyment into their lives. I'm confident that the future of this magazine is bright, positive, and since I read a lot of the emails and shake a lot of the hands, I'm also confident that there are a lot of people benefiting from it and only a few pouting about the typo on page 22.

Read the magazine and come back with some specific, constructive criticism that helps us improve the way this information moves to English and then I'll recognize your concern as a genuine one.

Regards A.D. Fisher Senior Editor The Art of Tea

I guess what it boils down to is would you prefer an all-Western, extremely professional, error-free magazine on tea (printed in Walawala Wash.)-with exciting articles on the low calories in Nooplebee's new Apple Peach Fizzle ice tea....or would you like to have access to a huge network of experts and a library of books by the most renowned authors on Asian tea, with the understanding that there might be a few language problems along the way?

I think, with patience and hard work, contribution and participation, we can eventually get to the best of both worlds.

Why don't both of you crawl back under the website you came from. Take the advice of your junior editor and post your comments where he requested. This is Usenet. This group's charter specifically prohibits soliciting.

Jim

On May 3, 10:37 am, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote: ...

That was unnecessary, whoever you are. This is the kind of message that turns things into flame wars, thank you very much.

If you want constructive criticism -- how about hiring a professional editor who reads English to check the layouts right before they go to the printer, to make sure there are no typos made by the typesetters, who know no English, and obvious problems in grammar/language?

It shouldn't take more than a day's work, and in this day and age of computer... not a difficult thing to find somebody to do at all.

That the magazine doesn't seem to do it is a cause for concern, or a reflection of how much it actually cares about this publication, or a bit of both.

MarshalN

A professional (highly paid) editor who is excellently proficient in both English and Chinese (a Singaporean comes to mind), and who is highly paranoid with perfection would do the job well. All the talk about the improvements in the 2nd issue is, I think, correct. And Ethan was right when he said there is room for improvement. More importantly is, I feel that a publication that others depend on as a source of reference must be trustworthy and not place itself in any conflict of interest. Chen Chi Tong, Zhou Yu, He Jing Cheng...in their infinite tea wisdom play both as referees and players. Chan Kam Pong, the Managing Editor, is no longer an independent collector but has tied himself with Chang Tai with the recent product release under the name Clouds. As much as I respect their knowledge and opinion, I can't help but be skeptical of the magazine's leanings and impartiality. When the boss on top does not carry the appearance of independence anymore, it affects the whole team under him, too.

If Robert Parker owns a wine shop, the public will have skepticism towards his wine ratings and motive, no matter how knowledgable and passionate in the subject he may be.

All in all, IMO, the magazine is doing a great job in sharing tea knowledge with the English-speaking readers. The criticisms here can be like bitter pills to swallow, but I think they are what will help make the magazine better.

Phyll

On May 3, 10:48 am, MarshalN wrote:

Wouldn't all be a little more reflective of your wisdom, dear critics, to look at the (tea)cup as half full, rather than half empty? I am certainly no Pollyanna; however, when I received "The Art Of Tea" and took a breath and a minute to acknowledge the huge body of work that it is, with oodles of good stuff from, whom I would call, "Tea Masters", I was blown away. I refer to this magazine a great deal and feel privileged that someone had such intention. Having your writers meet a word copy minimum, hitting editorial and proofing, getting the magazine "to bed" on time are all heavy-duty chores. On top of all that, it needed to be translated without losing essence and flavour. "Well", I said to myself, "aren't we lucky to have this". Of course, there are problems. In one of my many careers, I worked for Time/Life as a stringer. One of the elders on staff in New York told horror stories of the first years of getting writers, editors and content together. Mind you, these folks were writing and proofing in their native language and had a tough row to hoe. The point I'm trying to make is a simple one: we (tea-nuts) are really fortunate to have such accessible tea info available to us from half- way around the globe. There was definitely a need in the tea world for a sophisticated source of reviews by authoritative tasters, vendors, manufacturers and growers. The Art Of Tea, is also a heavy, glossy, gorgeous magazine and all of these adjectives cost money. Perhaps, the solution may be to cut back on the not-very-easily-recyclable paper and non-soy ink and use those funds to put on a proof-reader. Proofing, contrary to belief in previous posts, takes some time, especially when the language tends to lose euphony in grammatical correction and translation. As for solicitation: aren't we all soliciting when we hype a particular purveyor for a particular tea? Or, when we post our poo- poos or raves? I think of The Art of Tea as a necessary sourcebook for real tea enthusiasts which will work the kinks out as well as they can. I also think it only fair to actually READ the magazine before anyone should jump in to find fault. So, for now, I'm sure, the publishers and editors, columnists (some who are on this usenet, btw) have gotten the message. But in the meantime, I've just made a pot of Guang's 2007 Jin-Si Golden Tips (DELICIOUS!) and I'm going to curl up on the couch with the newest copy of The Art Of Tea, if for no other reason than because it's there and there's not another one like it. I would suggest that you, heady tea-heads, get out of your big brains for a while, settle down for a bit and have a cup of tea while you take a gander at the great photos which are not misspelled or grammatically incorrect. Tea and peace! Happy sips! Shen

Marshall-- I wasn't trying to make this a flame war, just to add a bit of humor and make the point that this information is in Chinese, so there is a content/English kind of dilemma, one that is getting better as we move forward. Again with the typos? You still haven't answered me Marshal. Have you seen the second issue? The first? Have you read them?

We do have some professional editors and there is, like in any magazine, conflict between those worried about the magazine, (i.e. the editorial department) and those in charge of budgeting. The printing/ editing process is a bit more complicated than just fixing the problems the day before printing. This magazine is over 200 pages, and

180 pages of that was text. No magazine in the world has content like that. Nevertheless, we did come up with some solutions and one of them did involve two sleepless days before printing the second issue, which is mostly error-free (though it does still have room to grow). You have no idea what your saying when you claim that the people here don't care. Again I would state that you were battering this same argument before the first one was even released. Half the people, literally, that flamed us here upon the release of the first issue then emailed us or our vendor to buy a copy. I don't really have anything else to say. Read the magazine or don't, but until you do your opinion about it isn't useful to anyone.

Phyll-- This is more along the lines of what I would call a useful topic for discussion. As I stated above, we already have professional editors. We are short on them, for sure. Anyone in this business can tell you that it isn't always about who, but about how many eyes look at something. It's hard to edit down 200 pages in a few weeks, and the more eyes that look at it the better. Again, I doubt budgeting and convenience (We're in Taiwan) would allow for us to have an employee so far away. I hardly think that "fire your editors and hire new ones" is a useful solution. Your second point is a more valid one. Most of the greatest and most informed people in the tea world are also tea producers or own tea stores of their own. This is logical because they're the ones dealing with the tea the most. So then how do we prevent them from pushing their own product and/or agenda? I would say there are three ways. The first and logically weakest only applies for those who have met them, but the fact is that a lot of these people are really wonderful guys. Once you get to know them, their generosity and integrity becomes evident. Teacher Chen, for example, is donating his time and money to come to the tasting this summer in America. The event is completely unpaid for him. He also has spent countless unpaid hours helping with the magazine. Secondly, we publish a lot of different voices and perspectives. The two issues have so far hosted more than 25 different authors, and we haven't even come close to exhausting the amount available through this network. Finally, we monitor the content of their articles. Mr. Cham's article in this issue is about how to store your Puerh tea at home, not how to store the tea you bought from him. The topic itself cannot have a bias. It goes without saying that they shouldn't be writing about their own products or evaluating others. Also, Mr. Cham is a lawyer. He has not "aligned" himself with Chang Tai, nor does he work for them. He simply ordered a very small batch of tea from them. He is not contractually bound to them in any way. He could order tea from another producer next time. Personally, I think he is making the tea as much for fun as for profit, as he already has a lucrative career. The tea tastings also have never included any teas produced by any of the participants; and they are all blind, authors receive only lettered packages.

Anyway, I can't think of a single expert in the tea industry that is currently well-known and publishing that doesn't also own a tea house, brand, etc. So how would you propose we fix this? And which article in the magazine do you think is biased towards a certain company? or leans in that direction? Or perhaps there is a section you feel less reliable because of the participation of tea house owners? Are you really trying to help? It would seem so, as you have said you read the magazine and are planning to attend the tasting this summer.

Ethan says he's nothing more to say I'm close to exhausting my own words. Perhaps we can talk in person at the tea gathering Regards Aaron