Alsace Grand Cru Tokay Pinot Gris

"dick" wrote in news:Tsenc.3362$ snipped-for-privacy@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net:

You are right, but Pinot Gris for a long time was called this in the Alcase. My understanding is that the practice had to be abated, I am surprised that there are any bottles left out there with the tokay label it has been a couple years since I recall seeing one.

It's the same grape, Tokay...Pinot Grigio ...Pinot Gris.... I recently enjoyed a stunning bottle of Dopff & Irion Tokay Pinot Gris Grand Cru with B.C. salmon.

jcoulter wrote:

Really...Tokay as in the Hungarian Dessert wine is same at Pinot Gris..grigio?

No, Tokay Pinot Gris is not related at all with the Hunagarion version.

In 2005 (or is it 2006) this Tokay word is not allowed any longer with Pinot Gris on a label. It is then (finally) banned!

Regards,

Robèrt

I think this has more or less already basically been answered, but to tie up a few loose ends...

Tokay is a grape grown in Hungary, often used in a sweet wine but I believe it is also used for less well know dry wines.

In Alsace Tokay is the name used for Pinot Gris, i.e. a totally different grape.

It has nothing to do with coming from a single vineyard. Regardles of the grape variety, the vineyard may be specified on Alsace wines, and they now have a Grand Cru system.

To avolid confusion with the Hungarian Tokay, The Alsations have agreed now always to use "Tokay Pinot Gris" on labels.

Probably :-)

Salut/Hi dick,

le/on Sat, 08 May 2004 23:56:35 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

Not quite. Tokaj (note spelling) is a town about the size of Nuits in the North East of Hungary. Wines from near the town are called Tokaji something (like wines from near Graach in Germany are called Graacher something). The westernised spelling of both these is Tokay.

The dessert wine from the region is Tokaji Aszu (there are several others, but they're much less known - Tokaji Szamarodni Edes, Tokaji Késöi szüretelésú - meaning late harvest and the legendary Tokaji Eszencia).

Eszencia particularly had such a stellar reputation that for many years in various parts of the world, people have tried to pass off locally produced wines as Tokaj or Tokay. Alsace was one such, and in Australia in Rutherglen, they still persist in doing so, calling the Muscadelle grape Tokay locally and making a sweet wine from it.

Steve Slatcher (who answered you) is quite wrong in saying that Tokaj/y is a hungarian grape, it isn't. There are four grapes (I think) used in the Tokaj region to make white wine, Furmint, Harlevelu, Muskotely, and Orémus (also the name of an excellent estate owned by Vega Sicilia).

In Alsace, it seems that they thought that the grape used to make Tokaji Aszu or Tokaji Eszencia was the Pinot Gris, so they made wine from it (excellent wine, often) and called it "Tokay". Pressure persuaded them to rename it to Tokay d'Alsace, and finally, to Tokay - Pinot Gris. Despite fighting hard to retain the name, they have until 2005 (or 6, I can't remember) to drop all mention of Tokay from their labels.

By the way, Australia is still resisting this. But since they also make "port" that isn't shipped "across the bar at Oporto" (the erstwhile legal definition of Port wine in the UK) and "sherry" that has nothing to do with Jerez de la Frontera (the origin of the name), and no doubt madeira that never saw the island of Madeira, they are unlikely to change until the EU threatens to ban ALL import of Australian wine until they start respecting international agreements.

About 20 years ago, Alsace winemakers decided to create the concept of "Grand Cru" vineyards, which are the fields which were recognised by the profession and consumer alike as consistently making better wine. The INAO legislation over this has gone OTT, and is now becoming a bit silly, but the idea was that most top vineyards were known for producing a particular grape, so - for example in Bergheim, the Grasberg vineyard grows particularly good Riesling, so with typical silliness, they have 1) insisted that only Riesling may be grown there, and b) insisted that in the future you may not mention the grape variety for the vineyard, since it is implicit. They have also (and this is even sillier) insisted that ALL Grand Crus have to contain just one grape variety.

So, a single vineyard (if it isn't a grand cru) may grow any grape variety, but not if it is a grand cru vineyard. Off hand I can't remember if it's legal to mention a vineyard name in Alsace if it's not grand cru.

I like it very much as a food wine, where it's as good as the Austrian Gruner Veltliner, I feel, for otherwise tricky food matches.

========To specifically answer other comments in this thread.

Josh Coulter is nearly right. Yes, the Alsacians have agreed to drop the mention of Tokay from Pinot Gris labels, but they were given (I think) 10 years to implement this, and you can still find new bottles WITH the twin name Tokay - Pinot Gris.

Don is quite right. The grape (called Tokay in Alsace) is the same, and for completeness - and because we've been talking about Hungary, makes a gorgeous slightly sweet wine near Lake Balaton under its Hungarian name of Szurkebarat (with various accents) - Grey Friar. But that grape is NOT used in Tokaji to make the dessert wine- to answer your supplementary question.

I've already corrected Steve S's error in calling Tokay a grape in Hungary. Apart from that, he's right in saying that naming a vineyard has not much to do with naming a grape variety, though shortly it WILL do so, for the Grand Cru vineyards, as I said before, I'm not sure that growers may use the names of other (non grand cru) vineyards on their bottles, though if they may not, I don't blame Steve for making a mistake, as things are in great flux there.

How do I know all this? I have a couple of very good friends who make wine there, and we often discuss their legislative plans when we meet. I have to say that they have the grace to look distinctly uncomfortable when I talk about my hungarian winemaking friends in Tokaj and the Pinot Gris!!

That's complete rubbish - never believe anything you read on usenet.

Tokay is the Angicised form of a PLACE in Hungary that has given its name to a wine - they use various grapes, mainly Furmint, but NOT Pinot Gris.

Hi Dick

Alsace Grand Cru Tokay Pinot Gris is not complete The "Grand Cru" belongs to the area where the wine comes from, f.i. Hengst, Altenberg Bergbieten, Kirchberg etc. Alsace has 50 area's who are allowed to have Grand Cru on there label

greetings

jenny

------------------------------------------------- Bonum Vinum Laetificat Cor!!!

Great. The one I had was Kirchberg and producer was Klipfel.

Year 2000.

I really enjoyed. Rarely do I drink whites with exceptiono of Champaigne or Sparkling.

dick

I corrected my own post even before reading yours. Don't know what came over me.

It is legal. Or at least tolerated. I have seen with my own eyes several non-Grand Cru wines with a specified vineyard.

I believe Grand Crus can be quite large areas BTW, and another objection from some producers, e.g. Rolly Gassmann, is that they prefer to label their wine with a specific vineyard within a Grand Cru area, which they cannot do if they declare it to be Grand Cru. I say "I believe" here because this is half-remembered verbal information. Can anyone verify this?

Are they also uncomfortable about their objections to producers from Southern France using the term "Vendange Tardive"? I think I would be. As a rule I am very much in favour of getting rid of generic uses of Tokay, Champange, Port etc, but isn't "Vendange Tardive" just French for "Late Harvest"?

"Ian Hoare" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

Charming or at least completely false anecdote: Legend has it that the Imperial Steward, Laszar Schwendi, after burning and pillaging various towns in HUngary on the orders of his high and benevolent master, brought back the grape from HUngary as a blessing to his loyal Alsatian subjects. For which he is portayed on the marketplace of COlmar, holding a cluster of grapes in his noble hand.

"dick" skrev i meddelandet news:s9onc.3682$ snipped-for-privacy@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...

Hello Dick; The Pinot Gris is something of a rising value, I think, in Alsace. However, it´s a region of individualism run rampant, and you will find loads of different styles, from nearly bone dry examples with a marked refreshing acidity, to fruit bombs with lots of residual sugar. Those marked Vendange Tardive are to a very high % sweet, sometimes even sticky. I personally value the products of Bruno Sorg, and Dirler-Cadé. These are however small vineyards, and their products may never reach you.

Cheers

Nils GUstaf

refreshing

These are

It occurred to me to wonder what a "grey" grape actually looked like and I came up with a picture in

It is interesting that the grape is referred to on that page as "Tokay Pinot Gris" and it is stated that the grape came from Hungary a long time ago but that most Hungarian wines use the Furmint. "Pour la petite histoire, le Tokay Pinot Gris, aurait été ramené de Hongrie par Lazare de Schwendi, après sa victoire à Tokay sur les turcs en 1565. Cependant, aucun cépage ne lui semble apparenté aujourd'hui en Hongrie. Les vins de Tokay sont à majorité issu de Furmint."

I'm not in a position to argue about the accuracy of the article but it has a nice picture of the grapes.

Just for clarity, a quick recap:

The Alsatians used to call Pinot Gris by the name Tokay d'Alsace.

Sometime in the '80s there was an agreement to start phasing out that name, I don't remember a wine from the '90s labeled Tokay d'Alsace. Most 90s wines are labeled Tokay Pinot Gris.

There is a deadline (within a couple years, I think) for total elimination of the word Tokay, already many producers just put Pinot Gris on the label.

There is more discussion in the international community re the Tocai grape in the Friuili region, but unsure of status of those talks. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Salut/Hi Steve Slatcher,

le/on Sun, 09 May 2004 15:24:21 +0100, tu disais/you said:-

Indeed you did! I was impressed - actually, I wondered if it wasn't a case either of stolen cyberpersonas, or schizophrenia!

Perfectly possible. My Alsace friends and I don't often get too bogged down on such minutiae (;-)) We're usually too busy tasting their Grand Cru Altenberg de Bergheim.

Fair enough, though there's a niggle in the back of my mind that suggests that this is shortly to be banned. But I could well be imagining this.

The ones I know are, yes. There seems to be a move afoot in France to try to enlarge the type of word which is deemed to be specific to an area. So Muscadet producers prevented Luc de Conti from putting Cuvée sur lie on a wine frem Bergerac, the expression "Méthode Champenoise" is now reserved, etc.

I agree 100%. I wish I knew what we could do to persuade the INAO or the association of Alsace wine makers NOT to act in such a restrictive way. I'm pretty unhappy about their attempts to limit Gewurztraminer production outside their area too.

"James Silverton" skrev i meddelandet news:409ea4f1$0$2987$ snipped-for-privacy@news.rcn.com...

The actual grape is not so much grey as pinkish. Rarely, you will find Pinot Gris wines with a bronze sheen or highlights - I gave a TN of one about a year ago, from Friuli, if I remember correctly. As for the name gris, you may keep in mind that some of the very pale rosés from SOuthern France are called 'gris'.

The grape is closely related to Pinot Noir, and, according to some authorities, genetically identical. No doubt it has evolved as a mutation of PN, and it was grown in Bourgogne in the Middle Ages (it is allowed in the today rare, lesser quality Bourgogne Grande Ordinaire). The story about Lazar Schwendi and the Tokay Pinot Gris is bunk.

BTW, in parts of Italy, Grenache goes by the name of Tocai Rosso woithout being to my knowledge in the slightest affiliated with HUngary - there may be more explanations to the moniker 'tocai/Tokay' than geography, what?

HTH

Nils Gustaf

First of all, my apologies to group, my "recap" somehow posted almost a day after I wrote it, and covered stuff that others had explained more precisely.

But it got me to wondering re the status of the situation with the Tocai grape in the north of Italy. Does Mike or anyone have the story on the currrent situation there re the use of the name Tocai? Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

That bronze colored PG from Friuli was probably Livio Felluga's (was it you who was asking me about this producer recently?).

Mark Lipton