I have just received my August copy of Decanter. At the risk of re opening a debate, I note with some interest that there are a number of artciles in it which deal with alternative closures. In particular the article by Andrew Jefford points out the reductive character of many wines bottled under Stlevin. Jefford also mentions a quote from Brian Croser who states that he "hated" his wines when they had been aged under screwcap.
Another article by Paul White notes the serious closure faults he discovered when tasting wines in New Zealand and in Australia which had been bottled under Stelvin. This same article also makes mention of clinical research by the Australian Wine Research Institute which suggests a strong possibility of reduction problems in screwcaps.
This is interesting when one looks at the strong views expressed by some posters on this newsgroup on this particular issue.
le/on Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:24:31 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
Just to let you know that Robert Joseph, editor in chief of "Wine" magazine, and leading competitor in the UK for Decanter, is strongly in favour of Stelvin. This might - in part - explain Decanter's current stance.
I'm not casting any doubt on the honesty of the opinions expressed against the closure, by the way. Like Michael, I feel that we should be given the choice of closure so that we can decide for ourselves which evil to avoid.
By the way, as you understand it, what's the opposite of "reductive"? We had a long debate here ages ago, about the way in which wines age. Given that alcohol oxidises pretty quickly, thereby using up any free oxygen in the ullage, isn't most of the life of a wine under reductive conditions, even under cork, expecially when some sulphur dioxide (metabisulphite/camden tablets) is used at bottling time.
It's a well-known issue I'd call "beginner's fault". You just need to adjust your winemaking to a more precise and less sloppy approach when it comes to sulphur levels etc. It's well known act that cork "pardons" this easily. There is the well-known phenomenon of "bottling sickness" which blows of after a few weeks/months in the bottle or with extended aerating/caraffing/ decanting after opening. I see this phenomenon - which is not
*that* common anyhow - as the cause of the problem.
This is not that I deny the problem - it exists, although far less frequently than cork taints -, but the solution to the problem
*is* known, the problem *is* solvable, while there is no working remedy against cork taints in the broadest sense, at least not yet.
| As we see it today, the winemaking implications of using screw | caps relate primarily to five areas; sulphides, dissolved gasses | (and in particular dissolved oxigen), sulphur dioxide, tannins | and bottling considerations.
Tyson Stelzer, "Screwed for Good", p. 62. All these issues are discussed in extenso on the next 10 pages.
Sorry, I am not a winemaker, and my command of English is not as good as to being able to excerpt. Maybe one could find more be googling.
Sorry, nothing directly related, but quite an interesting read:
stating Croser having introduced screw caps back in 1977 at the Charles Sturt University (CSU) Winery, NSW (AU). Extremely intersting: TNs of very old AU whites at the bottom of the page.
| As we see it today, the winemaking implications of using screw | caps relate primarily to five areas; sulphides, dissolved gasses | (and in particular dissolved oxigen), sulphur dioxide, tannins | and bottling considerations.
Tyson Stelzer, "Screwed for Good", p. 62. All these issues are discussed in extenso on the next 10 pages.
Sorry, I am not a winemaker, and my command of English is not as good as to being able to excerpt. Maybe one could find more be googling.
Sorry, nothing directly related, but quite an interesting read:
stating Croser having introduced screw caps back in 1977 at the Charles Sturt University (CSU) Winery, NSW (AU). Extremely intersting: TNs of very old AU whites at the bottom of the page.
Another interesting read: The Hogue study, as interpreted by the Wine Spectator:
| The results didn't surprise David Forsyth, Hogue's director of | winemaking. Hogue staff tastings (of their own wines and those | produced by competitors) have revealed an 18 percent incidence | of cork taint. And batches of corks purchased by the estate are | often judged substandard. "We do a lot of sensory work on | incoming corks, and we had to look at 40 different lots before | finding one we could use. And even that had 2 percent taint," he | said.
Brian Croser was at the forefront of the introduction of Stelvin closures, and still uses them for his [most ageworthy] Petaluma 'Hanlin Hill' Riesling.
Yes I am aware of this, (> Brian Croser was at the forefront of the introduction of Stelvin closures). . I suspect he was commenting particularly on his reds rather than whites. The Petaluma Riesling is available under both sorts of closures. Over the last 2 years I have purchased a case, 6 of each, and look forward with interest to comparing the two closures over the years.
I suspect strongly that most Australian wine drinkers do not age white wines and indeed have a prejudice against this, or simply, (erroneously), believe that Aust whites do not age. I remember some years ago the amazement of some people to whom I showed a '47 Yalumba Carte D'or Riesling which was still in excellent condition.
To Michael P, Thanks for the links; they made interesting reading.
With all due respect, Ian, sulfite will oxidize far faster than alcohol. Indeed, if the oxidation of alcohol weren't very sluggish, our opened bottles of distilled spirits would be too vinegary to drink. As for "reductive" flavors, I'd suggest thiol odors (rotten eggs, skunk, rubber, etc.) as the most recognizable.
le/on Sun, 26 Sep 2004 02:37:30 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
Sorry not to have expressed myself clearly, Mark.
That's exactly my point. Even though oxygen may have been present in the air space between cork and wine, the SO2 usually added at filling time will have neutralised it very quickly. So from then onwards, the fact that you have alcohol (and perhaps still some free SO2) present, and no oxygen, means that the conditions in the bottle are reductive rather than oxidative. The only chance of any oxygen getting in would be when the bottles cool (normally during fall and winter, in a non temperature controlled cellar). And even then the minute traces of oxygen (w/w when compared with gram-mole equivalents of alcohol) would be used up _relatively_ fast, returning the conditions in the bottle to reductive.
Good point. I'd not thought of it. I can only suggest that either the much higher levels of alcohol present inhibit oxidation or that the weight (in gm moles) of oxygen is so low that the oxidation is negligable. Because we all know that once a bottle has been opened and decanted, a time bomb is ticking. While the wine nearly always improves at first, this improvement is time limited (15 mins to 48 hours in most cases) and then it deteriorates - except in the case of a very few wines (Tokaji Aszu, Madeira to name two). Would you contend that the deterioration is more due to oxidation of complexes other than alcohol? Possible, certainly. But that would apply as much to oxygen present in the ullage. And whether it's alcohol or some complex that oxydises, it will absorb the free oxygen - thereby returning the equilibrium to reductive.
rubber, etc.) as the most
And in the case of strongly reductive conditions, these faults HAVE been recognised, certainly. But coming back to the central point, I'd be astonished if the presence of cork closures (as opposed to something more hermetically perfect) would significantly reduce the incidence of this. What do you think?
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