Belgium destroys California "champagne"

Don't lobsters move around? (What is their range?) That is, might the same lobster that was almost caught in Maine end up in a trap off the coast of Maryland? Grapes, as far as I know, do not move around by themselves (although drinking enough old grape juice may make it seem that way :)

Jose

Actually, Lobsters typically live and die within a 2 mile radius of there they were born. At least thats what a friend of mine told me.

(snip)

They were actually protecting the poor gullible cruise ship passengers of the world. The wine was being shipped to Nigeria by way of Belgium for ultimate use on cruise ships, per news articles I've seen. The exporter or distributor must have been an EU company to agree to the destruction.

Don't ship your Worcestershire Sauce through Belgium.

Zane

No. It describes the process of "transvasage". In Champagne, by law only bottles between 375ml (halves) and 3,000ml (jéroboams) have to be fermented in the same bottle; smaller formats (200/250ml minibar & airline bottlings) and larger formats (réhoboam & up) can legally be "transvasé" (filled) from standard bottles.

M.

. I agree up to a point, however many appellations have had their geographic areas increased in size so much, that many products have nothing to do with their namesake. Chianti comes to mind. That region has grown so large that they actually have to name Chianti that COMES from Chianti "Classico."

Does it make a difference in the final product whether it is fermented in the same bottle or not? Or is the point that it has to be fermented in a small container rather than (as in charmant) a huge one?

Jose

German wine scientists will tell you that the size of the container won't make any difference, while French will proclaim exactly the opposite ... ;-)

Champagne producers, however will tell you (not officially, of course, but /sotto voce/) that transvasage lessens the quality of the final product, albeit rather slightly. It's quite clear that refilling from another bottle results in some CO2 escaping.

As an aside: the rule that Champagne has to be fermented in halves and 3 litre jéroboam bottle is rather new (just a few years back*), before they could be transvasés, too. Before this time only standard and magnum bottles had to be fermente in the same bottle.

or

M.

Jose wrote on Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:25:30 GMT:

??>> No. It describes the process of "transvasage". In ??>> Champagne, by law only bottles between 375ml (halves) and ??>> 3,000ml (jéroboams) have to be fermented in the same ??>> bottle;

J> Does it make a difference in the final product whether it is J> fermented in the same bottle or not? Or is the point that J> it has to be fermented in a small container rather than (as J> in charmant) a huge one?

I know that all the bulk (Charmat) process stuff I have tried was neither good nor worth retrying but I wonder if it has to be that way? Has anyone done any experiments? The champagne made in New York state by Great Western was bottle fermented but was filtered under pressure and the contents of several bottles mixed before rebottling. Is that transvasage?

I have pleasant memories of group tours of the champagne wineries (with a necessary designated driver) when I was at Cornell many years ago.

James Silverton Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On a related note, last week my in-laws were in town from California. I served a Brocard Chablis with dinner one night. My M-i-L said in a surprised voice " oh, they make Chablis in France, too?" She was amazed to hear that Chablis wasn't always a cheap winem, and had no clue that Chablis was a region with a long history of winemaking. While serious wine folks will never be "fooled," and people who only buy $6/magnums are never going to be in market for Chablis AC much less Le Clos, the devaluation of the name does damage in the middle. Same goes for Champagne.

Funnily, some of the producers who argued it was fine to use European place names such as Chianti, Champagne, Burgundy, etc on their products protested some Italian producers labeling their wines "Zinfandel" once it was proved that Zinfandel and Primitivo were same grape.

While I can add nothing to the scientific debate, I can add my own subjective impression that, when given the opportunity to taste the same sparkling wine in 750 mL and magnum, I consistently find the magnums to afford a more appealing wine: richer, more depth of fruit. I could probably find a lame rationalization for that observation having to do with surface-to-volume ratios, but I'll spare you all.

Mark Lipton

Not necessarily. Take bette base wines, leave it longer on the lees, and there you are. But given the fact that the method is cheaper, in 99.99% of the cases charmat method is used to make plonk to compete at lowest price.

As I have said: Geisenheim did experiments decades ago and found no difference between tank and bottle fermented sparklers.

Yes, that's also "transvasage". In German it's "Transvasiermethode".

M.

An assumption on your behalf Ian that is totally inaccurate. I have stocked Tokaji Aszu (both 4 & 5 Puttonyos) for a number of years, and the fact I have sold it suggests I am not alone in understanding what Tokaji is, and where it hails from... :>)

A good

Our legendary Houghtons White Burgundy is now known as Classic Dry White, our "champagne" is now labelled "champagne style", and the jury is still out on what we will call our fortifieds when that part of the labelling laws comes into play. We will call them whatever we believe is relevant, but by their old names or their new ones, I doubt if 1 in

Hooroo....

Salut/Hi Matt S ,

le/on Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:52:32 +1100, tu disais/you said:-

I must say I'm surprised, because when I went there, I asked quite a few people - in wineries and outside them and no one had heard of or tasted it. But if that's changed I'm delighted. But to how many people hcan you say you sold it - compared to the number of bottles of Tokay? OI'm curious, which make do you sell. Tell all.

err... that WAS about 14 years ago, you know. And I might point out that French Polynesia isn't exactly YOUR back yard, even though Australia's fury might have led one to think so, When in fact it was all a storm in a tea cup, designed to whip up anti-French sentiment and sell Oz wine. Not dumb - which is most certainly what Chirac was, when he fell into Mitterand's trap.

"Ian Hoare" wrote .....

Now hold on a minute Mr. Hoare (says this self proclaimed peer in righteous indignation!)

The distance from NZ to Mururoa is about 2,600miles (alright you Euro/decimalicentric Franco/Anglo/Hungarophile! - 4,100km) - and I know - I sailed every nautical mile of that journey!

So I DO claim that this is virtually in my back yard - and not because of the distance involved - oh no - but because the French government, in a barbaric act of state sponsored terrorism, authorised the bombing of the Greenpeace ship Rainbow Warrior in Auckland harbour - that is New ealand - and that, my friend, IS my back yard.

Furthermore (with tongue firmly in cheek) - the last nuclear test at Mururoa was on February 22, 1996, a mere TWELVE years ago.

So as long as France can celebrate Bastille day and England the failed bombing of parliament centuries ago, we antipodeans reserve the right to remind France of her indiscretions at each and every opportunity.

Of course, this will not stop myself and my fair Lady St.Helier venturing forth this coming September, to continue this discussion, in France.

Stock up that cellar !!!!!!!!!

Cheers from a gorgeous 30C summers evening in paradise.

I don't disagree with the destruction of California "champagne" in Belgium, but there was a time when things might have been different. Shortly after WW2, I went on an extended 6 month visit to Sweden, where I met my grandparents and other relatives. We took a few side trips to other countries including Belgium. At that time, the Belgians were very appreciative of the Americans. I still remember the Belgian policeman who gave me a 1907 Russian ruble (that I still have). If I may, I'd like to digress a little, and talk about ... cheese! Limburger cheese was originally a Belgium cheese named after the province of Linburg. It was adopted by the Germans in the 19th century, and is currently produced in the USA by only 1 cheese maker located in Monroe, Wisconsin. I'd like to do a taste test of various Limburger cheeses, but I can't find my nose plugs. :-)

FWIW Dick R.

For Andre's, I'd have helped break 'em. I hope that ALL of the CA sparkler producers adopt the term, "Sparkling Wine," if for no other reason, than a show of class. However, I feel the same about wines with the word "Napa" (fill in the blank), in the producer's name, when the wine comes from the Imperial Valley (or someplace similar), and has no heritage with Napa.

If it comes from the Languedoc, I do not want to see the word "Bordeaux," even if Emile Bordeaux is the producer, but that is just me.

Hunt