Burgundy no-decant dogma: What's going on?

Salut/Hi Max Hauser,

le/on Thu, 27 May 2004 21:17:26 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Says who? I've never seen this proposed as a matter of principle anywhere in France. I've often had Burgundies in Burgundy and sometimes (for wines which are a bit young, for example, or where there's a risk of sediment) they've been decanted. When at home I nearly always decant my better Burgundies. I am almost certain I've read of several here who have found that the wine improves dramatically with decanting.

Of course. I am in no doubt whatsoever about this, Max. I think we should compose a fairly trenchant letter to the American Guild of Sommeliers - or whatever the professional association in the States may be - and send it.

I think there are two issues here.

1 The customer is always right. I _know_ that Michael (P) will confirm what I have to say here. If a customer asks for a wine to be decanted, it should be done. If the Sommelier, who is after all, paid for his expertise, has grave reservations, he has a right and perhaps a duty to warn the customer with great deference that "This is not our normal policy for this and that reason" but if the customer persists, should do so with no further demur and with good grace. I have to say that if I were the customer whose request was being refused, I'd call the maitre d to the table and inform him that if HE wants to pay for the wine, I'll drink it in the way the sommelier insists.

1. WHO is giving advice that it's bad to do decant Burgundies? For what reason? I wonder if there's anyone involved in the Restaurant trade in the States who can inform us.

Arrogant insanity. (he said tactfully).

Salut/Hi Max Hauser,

le/on Thu, 27 May 2004 21:17:26 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

I was particularly interested by the discussion over Lynch-Bages status.

It is of course a 5th growth, but has fetched second growth prices for quite a number of years. As others have said it is NOT a "super second". A super second, as Mark has said, is a second growth which _consistently_ outperforms other seconds (and not just those seconds which underperform). It it arguable that the market will accord it a price intermediate between

2nd and 1st.

I certainly have found some benefit to decanting some Burgundies, though I probably do decant Burgs less than Bdx. As noted, bigger older Burgs are likely to have some sediment.

Putting aside sediment, even with older Burgs I find decanting helps, albeit immediately before consumption.

In any case, any sommelier who refused to decant when I asked could count on a request to speak to the owner or manager. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Max, Perhaps because I rarely find affordable, quality, aged Burgundy on restaurant wine lists (and, to date, I haven't had my own for BYO), I have never encountered this situation. Nonetheless, I find it mystifying. Why should Burgundy possess some magical aversion to decanting? Has anyone ever prodded the sommeliers in question to provide an explanation of their reasoning? Else, as your subject says, it's just dogma (and a bad one, at that). Aside from this, as Ian says, it's entirely unprofessional for a sommelier to refuse to accede to the wishes of the patron, not matter how much he/she may disagree with those wishes. "Ice cubes and soda water for your DRC Montrachet, Madame? Mais oui, tout de suite!"

As for your comments in the Lynch Bages thread, I'll sign up for that ban on reclassifications -- just draft it! :-)

Mark Lipton

I agree with everything you say. Personally, though, I am a little afraid of decanting older Burgundy, because it seems to fade rather quickly.

I have a bottle of 1990 DRC Romanee St. Vivant that I want to drink for Xmas this year. Should I decant? Or just let the bottle stand upright for 48 hours before opening?

"George Cutshaw" in news: snipped-for-privacy@nntp.acecape.com...

The factor at work here (and again my examples were robust GCs of 1985, strong wines in general, not shy, not shrinking very fast) is that they become turbid from sediment if it is disturbed. This can cause the wine to lose its "silky texture . . . Try decanting one bottle of an old Burgundy and not another just like it and you'll see the difference," said a recent correspondent, who acknowledged the delicacy and sometimes fugitive nature of old Burgundy.

But I may need to clarify (sorry) that we are referring here to decanting just before service to isolate the clear wine from its silt -- this wine then goes immediately into diners' glasses to evolve as it will. This was the objective of the Burgundy experts I cited, rebuked on three occasions in US restaurants. (I am sure some of you who have been in NY and SF know these restaurants.) The same corespondent, a habitual visitor to growers' cellars in Burgundy, mentioned an absence of decanting in cellars there, as opposed to restaurants there; on the other hand in cellars, "all glasses are poured in one tilt of the bottle, so, in effect, the wine is being decanted but into glasses rather than a carafe. The bottle is then put down and, true enough, if more is poured, it is cloudy and, yes, people drink it. . . . I've shared, perhaps, thousands of bottles of older Burgundy that have been decanted right before serving. Most recently, this includes some series of ten to 12 wines each from the 1971, 1969, and 1964 vintages. The decanted wines were clear and bright and did not suffer."

(Going from reporting a strange ritual at restaurants to advising someone what to do with a specific fine bottle -- of a wine I don't think I've tried -- is a jump, but I'm game.)

Of course let it stand upright for a couple of days, that's _always_ helpful for any wine with sediment, or that has traveled, as you probably know. (I park wines in restaurants in a quiet space, if one exists, in advance of visiting. I also try various gambits, if bringing a wine to a diverse group or host, in order to keep some well-meaning guests from handling the bottle, tipping it to read the label, shaking it, or other well-meaning abuse. At home of course the electric wire does the trick. Just kidding: we have a large raccoon population in my neighborhood and my neighbors with fish ponds have taken to stringing electric-fence wires with impressive ceramic stand-off insulators, slightly macabre-looking -- the current is non-lethal but instructive -- to stop their fish being et. One couple lately installed this and accumulated with satisfaction a couple of sets of "one-way" raccoon prints, one set terminating in a smeared print, connoting haste. Sorry to digress, but a good story, I hope!)

We had the 1985 of this wine about a year ago at a dinner of some Burg enthusiasts -- more delicate than other 1985s I mentioned in this thread, actually I believe this was the same DRC of which the first bottle was "corked," but two had been brought just in case. (I mentioned this is a thread on corking at one point.) Exquisite stuff. Decanted on request just before serving as I recall, anyway at a restaurant that gladly accommodates such requests, and served (acc. to notes someone kindly took) with "Roast rack of veal with English peas and trumpet mushrooms." It's old enough, I'd certainly decant it carefully just before serving. Viewing and maybe tasting what remains in the bottle will reveal the benefit of doing so, and all my experience and such larger experience as I quoted above says that the decanting won't hurt the wine.

Max Hauser

Salut/Hi George,

le/on Fri, 28 May 2004 14:47:01 -0400, tu disais/you said:-

I think that one needs to know one's producer (where have you read that before). Henri Gouges still makes old style Burgundy, as do the Hospice de Beaune (though of course once sold on in November, it's a gamble). These wines are robust and in need of long aging, and can well stand considerable decanter time. Growers making Burgundies "Nouvelle Methode" don't expect them to be kept for years and years and so you have to redefine "old" in their context. This is just one of the factors which make buying Burgundies such a minefield if you don't buy either from the grower - a bit hard living in the States - or from a merchant who really knows his wine and is honest.

Another factor of course, is how long you expect to be drinking the wine over (sorry about the wretched grammar). I find that I like to drink my wine with one or at maximum two courses. Call it 30 mins. So I want it to shine for a period of half an hour, without going downhill. For older wines, whose age therefore has to be assessed in terms of their own development, rather than calendar years, that may mean hitting a relatively small window. That said, watching a wine grow and then go downhill is instructive and can help you decant better next time!

I've talked about this at length, to share my _way_ of thinking when it comes to decanting, which I engage just about every time I approach a bottle of burgundy, in the hopes that it will help you in _your_ decision process.

Slightly tricky. 1990 was a magnificent year, DRC is DRC and at one time, certainly, made VERY long lived wines, so that a DRC '90 wouldn't normally be NEAR its apogee.

I've not had enough DRC to say whether they are still making wines like that. They WERE certainly, back in the late 70s (but then so were most decent growers).

However, against that, St Vivant is their least prestigious wine. On both occasions that we've visited them it was the first tasting sample and was almost treated like a "mise en bouche". But when you're proprietor of vineyards like Richebourg and La Tache, lesser is _distinctly_ relative. So, St Vivant is not going to be a really long lived wine in the Richebourg mould. I'd be inclined to regard it as fully ready for drinking, and therefore only decant it about half an hour before drinking, taking _great_ care not to splash it about. Pour in a single slow pour into a tilted decanter, running the wine down the side of the neck. This will reduce the exposure to air slightly. I'd certainly stand it upright well before drinking (a week is not too long) and bring it to drinking temperature (65F roughly) for 48 hours. Then when you pull the cork give the bottle a good sniff. If the smell comes _flooding_ out, then you could even delay decanting to just before drinking. If it's a touch reticent, decant right away. Removing the cork on its own does almost nothing to help the wine breathe, except sometimes to blow off a few "off smells". But it does let you assess how it is showing and judge decanting time appropriately.

As you'll have gathered, I'm an ardent partisan of the "decant" school. I've quite often even decanted big white wines which can also benefit from it.

considerable

Thank you very much for the comprehensive advice!

I have not touched any of my better Burgundy from 1988 and 1990. I do have the 90 DRC Romanee-St-Vivant and the 88 from Domaine Leroy. I do not plan to open the 90 from DRC for a few years, based on reports I have seen. Below is part of what M. Broadbent had to say concerning the

1990 DRC Romanee-St-Vivant.

"Most recently, at the second of the St-Vivant verticals: still deep, fairly intense; perfect Pinot, harmonious; sweet, mouthfilling, rich, complete, masked tannin - the easiest to drink of the younger vintages. Aubert de Villaine told our very small group - which included Le Meilleur Sommelier de France - that the yield was 33.86 hl/ha and 24,026 bottles, the biggest by far between 1989 and 2000. Last tasted Oct 2001

***(**) Great wine. Now - 2012."

I would guess the wine would be quite good now, but there should be no harm in keeping it a few more years if storage conditions are near perfect.

The 1990s, in general, are likely to be better early drinking than the

1988s, but the 1988s may equal or be better than the 1990s in some cases in the long term. For example, Broadbent rated the 88 DRC St-Vivant as *(****) when last tasted in 1995. He thought it might be fully evolved in 2008 - 2020. According to some reports, the 88 Domaine Leroy is better than the 88 DRC. I hope live long enough to taste the 88 Domaine Leroy St-Vivant at the peak.

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Salut/Hi Cwdjrx _,

Thanks very much indeed for your excellent comments.

le/on Sat, 29 May 2004 21:54:39 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

Which more or less confirms what I had to say about the vineyard.

Agreed. And in view of this, and

this, would you agree that perhaps I was a little cautious over the decanting time, and that it might be better to decant a bit earlier - say an hour before drinking?

Just to add my two cents: I never ever stand up a bottle before decanting - no need to do so. I put it into a decanting basket, so the sediment would be disturbed as little as possiible, draw the cork, and then proceed to decatation into a caraffe over a light source.

I know Ian disagrees with me on that point, but I found to get much more clear wine my way.

All this being only true if you have more or less immediate access to the bottle. If you need to take it along, to drive or whatsoever, standing upright ist the better solution, of course.

M.

Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,

le/on 30 May 2004 16:54:41 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

Yes, it's one of the rare things about which we disagree. However, it is due (in my opinion) to our very different backgrounds. Working as a sommelier, you never know what wine will be ordered and so you can't stand up a wine a week or two in advance. You HAVE to do it your way, because you will be decanting a wine that 5-10 mins earlier will have been lying down. Under those circumstances I'd have done the same.

Exactly.

better solution, of course.

Or if you know - as I often do, that I am going to be serving a wine in a week's time. I then go down to the cellar, stand it up and leave it there for the sediment to fall to the bottom of the bottle. Then (we're talking reds with sediment explicitly) I carefully transport the wine upstairs and leave it 48 -24 hours in a place where it can reach serving temperature. Finally I decant it. So the wine has ample time to settle again once moved from a horizontal to a vertical orientation.

I'd also say that I _don't_ decant in the cellar and at cellar temperature. That means that I'd have to carry the bottle(s) upstairs taking great care to stop the wine sloshing about in a horizontal bottle, in order to leave the bottle horizontal before decanting. I find that carrying bottles vertically leads to far less disturbace at the bottom of the bottle.

My question - now you're no longer under the same constraints as you were when a sommelier - is this. Using your method, how do you ensure that the wine is at good serving temperature? It seems to me to be tricky.

Seems strange to me.... As a F&B worker & (hopefully...just waiting for the results of my last test) sommelier... I have a hard time understanding why the restaurants in question would throw their preference in your face. I do not agree that the customer is always right, However, they are always the customer... I have decanted Baujolais upon customer request (then told jokes about it in the staff room). One Question for Max... was there a significant amount of sediment in the botttles in question? If there was, I would have definitely chosen to candle decant. As a general rule, I don't decant lighter style reds Pinot noir, Gammay etc... But if it makes the customer happy & enhances their dinning experience... decant away, I say...

En Vino Veritas Mathew

"Mathew Kagis" in news:20tuc.10500$ig5.1433@edtnps89...

Yes, that was the whole context of complaints about this policy. Part of the San Francisco episode I witnessed, absent from my account of it here

27-May, was showing the Master Sommelier the turbid wine, after service, in the glass of the person who had supplied the wine from his cellar (85 Clos de Tart). This person knew the wine, and knew that this would be an issue, which is why he had requested decanting. Mobile sediment in heavier Burgundies beyond a certain age is famous among their fans and underlies a long-time preference for decanting these wines just before serving, or taking other specific precautions, for clarification. My long and slightly digressive follow-up 29-May elaborated and quoted further.

I also agree that customers are sometimes very wrong about wine, and it is an issue of professionalism to possibly accommodate them anyway. That is not the nature of the cases I reported here. A long-term Burgundy fan, a US importer of Burgundies, and a respected Burgundian maker of the wine being served, all could be reasonably expected to know something about these wines. That is what makes this stubborn policy so strange.

Max Hauser

Ian Hoare asks: "And in view of this, and The 1990s, in general, are likely to be better early drinking than the

1988s, this, would you agree that perhaps I was a little cautious over the decanting time, and that it might be better to decant a bit earlier - say an hour before drinking?"

I must confess that I nearly never decant a whole bottle of wine unless I have had it recently and know that I want to decant it and for how long I want to wait after decanting. I usually put the bottle in the wine machine and flush the air space well with pre-purified nitrogen before lowering the tap tube down into the liquid. If I do not know the wine, I draw a very small sample, taste it and let it stand for a while. I then retaste from time to time. If the wine seems to improve, I may then draw the wine into glasses or a decanter at the desired time before service. Of course I do not go to all of this trouble for everyday wines.

Many like Burgundy when young with the initial fruit. However, for a top Burgundy, I had rather have it well-aged. I have found many top Burgundy reds that stay in the "dumb" period for up to 10 years or more after the initial fruit fades and before bottle bouquet begins to peak. Thus, if you do not know the wine, it is easy to open a bottle that still is not completely out of the "dumb" stage. In that case, decanting and some wait before drinking sometimes, but not always, helps. For fully mature Burgundy, or for one beginning to fade, I seldom find that decanting helps. If one must decant such old wines to avoid sediment, I think it usually would be best to decant them shortly before drinking. As a special case, old wines with bottle stench sometimes can be improved a bit by decanting, but if you wait too long before serving they may lose much of the desirable bouquet as well as the stench.

Unless a wine is kept at the same temperature as it stands after decantng, tasting results as a function of time can be very misleading. Just warmig a wine a bit can make it seem to improve considerably, especially if it is a tannic young red. Separation of the effects of both warming and exposure to air are too dificult for me to sort out.

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Wow, Max...I am truly Vexed.... I don't get why they would stubornly refuse to decant a well aged Burgundy.... As to who is telling the sommeliers in question not to...???? I can assure you that there was nothing in my course content that would make me a stuborn non decanter of burgundy... ( My course is taught by the International Sommelier Guild)... I'm not sure who else in the US certifies us cork dorks, perhaps the CIA (Culinary Institute of America)?

cheers Mathew

Hmm I recently drank the last of my 1949 DRC La Tache. I decanted it as I decanted all the others. The above proposition is rather dobtful, imho

Ron Lel

Did I understand right - the bottle in question came from a diner's cellar right that evening? Pardon my ignorance, but why wouldnt he have it (double) decanted at home, avoiding all that nuisance?

M.