French wines are overrated

Chateauneuf is an interesting wine in that it can vary so much from producer to producer what quality one is going to get. Also, the proportion of Grenache blend can make it lighter than if it has a lot of Syrah and Mouvedre. The year also matters. 1998, (to a lesser extent 99),00', and 01' were all great years and you would be more likely to find a nice bottle here. You should be prepared to spend a bit of money, a good CdP for less than $30 US is a bit of a rare bird.

I would maybe stay away from 2002's rhones in general if body is what you are after...with one caveat, because it is such a poor year, some of the big Chateauneuf names have declassified their juice into a "Cote du Rhone" wine. One that I have tried which I though was pretty good is from Pegau...they have made a wine called "Plan Pegau" that sells for around $15 wheras the usual Chateauneuf du Pape they make is around $45. "Vieux Telegraph" has done something similiar and released a cheaper wine with a different name (cant remember what it is, Vieux something!). These might be worth checking out if you can't find the years I mentioned.

But if you are going for a southern rhone with straight ahead guts I would really look to Chateauneuf's less famous neighbours Gigondas or a Vacqueras. these wines are maybe a bit more rustic than a CdP, but have a lot more raw power for the buck. A good Gigondas can be had for less than $20 USD. A Vacqueras for less than $16. Also don't overlook the wines of the Languedoc...many of these are plenty powerful and less than $15, Domaine de L'Hortus is pretty common and around $10 ...also, try a Madrian maybe.

Give me a break. I agree that Italy makes some incredible reds, but give me a list of some Italian whites that can touch a great white Burgundy. Where is Italy's Alsace? If we want to ga back to the reds, name me some great Italian Pinot noir producers...

The operative phrase is "profound bottles of more different varieties" with the emphasis on "profound" Again show me Italy's great Gewertztraminers and Rieslings. Pinot Grigio does not hold a candle to great Alsatian Pinot Gris. Italian Chardonnay is way behind the French. I have no animus towards Italy. I love a great Barolo, Barbaresco, and Chianti as much as the next guy...I even like a nice Amarone now and again, but that is all Italian wine holds for me. I never buy an Italian white except for the occasional Arneis because quite honestly they are not very interesting.

Also (and this is diverging a bit), If your myriad of Italian varieties have such widespread appeal, why have they not caught on in either Australia or America. You don't see great new plantings of Nebbiolo in Napa and most of the briefly captivating Sangiovese is now being ripped up. What are vintners planting? Yep, more French Varieties...sorry to say, but just about everyone in the new world is following the lead of the French.

Michael Leduc

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll see what I can find localy

-Indirecto

Michael Leduc wrote.....

Michael,

Don't waste your time or effort responding to this bozo - he is so FITH that he cannot see past anything Italian.

I mean, take a look at these words of wisdom...

He is so screwed up that he cannot even write the words France or French!

And while most of us recognise that some producers in some areas in Italy make some wonderful wines, UC is convinced that the most obscure local varieties, tucked away in some backwater, are the great undiscovered revelations to the winemaking world.

Many of us have simply kill filed UC - because trying to reason with him always ends up with the same result - we are liars; he is the enlightened one.

The truth is, he has a head of solid bone, and eyesight so tunnel-visioned that it is impossible for him to comprehend that anything can exist anywhere outside of I____y.

Imagine, we live on this earth for 60/70/80 years; there are so many countries to visit; places to see; foods to try and wines to experience, and here we have someone so bigoted that he cannot even comprehend the excellence of -

A ravishing Riesling or great Gewurz from Alsace The floral elegance of Mosel The power and "Australian brashness" of Grange Or one of those superb Champagnes of which Michael Tommasi writes Or Cabernet and Merlot in its many guises from Bordeaux Seafood and salad and Marlborough Sauvignon Or the special produce of Austria and Spain and Portugal and Hungary etc etc etc

What a waste of a life!!!

Marco,

D> What a load of rubbish.

No, he's an ignorant Bigot. I've seen them in France where they criticise American wines for not being French, I've seen them in America where they criticise French wines for not being American, but I have to admit, he's the first (Look for posts under the name of Mike Scarpiti if you want to see the deapths of inanity to which he sinks) who criticises all other wines for not being Italian.

Bigotry has no relationship with truth. Just do like everyone else, killfile the idiot and then I won't have to read his crap via your quotes.

All the best Ian Hoare

Gaia & Rey (Gaja), Cervaro della Sala (Antinori) ...

Alto Adige.

Maurizio Zanella, Castello di Ama, Franziskus Haas ...

M.

Has anyone else drunk the 1998 Magdelaine which apparently started this thread? If so do they agree that it was simply not ready, in the sense that it had probably passed that stage of youthful freshness when it could have been drunk with some pleasure, albeit much less than awaits in years to come, and had not reached maturity?

Do you think it's a shame that most winemakers release wine so soon rather than waiting for it to be ready to drink? Perhaps the fact that those, at least those of whom I am aware at the middling level, who do not release before maturity fail to obtain a premium in the market indicates that I am alone in this view.

Timothy Hartley

I haven't had the '98 Magdelaine, but most better '98 Right Bank wines are not in a good place right now. I agree- drink within year or so of release, or ignore for 10.

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

In the words of the great philosopher Steve Martin, "Well excuuuuuuse ME!

Why should I? It will be extremely expensive and underwhelming like

There is no hiding what *you* are talking about, dude. I was and am talking about great wine countries, and in the sphere of influence of winemaking at least the French have the upper hand on Italy sorry to say...

Influence in the world of sports cars we could argue about and you'd win handily...

Uhhhh...no...but thanks for assuming.

Uhhhh...no again. I typically drink my wine with meals. Geez how many times have you been wrong so far?

I have to bail out at this point. So enjoy your Rosso fella, but I have got to say you are not really much of a champion for either Italian wine or your point of view.

That would be Joe Grilli, of Primo Estate, up in Virginia, right?

I had the very great pleasure of spending a day with Joe and Dina a couple of years ago.

We had some delicious mini pizza (cooked in that outdoor pizza oven in the garden) accompanied by the Il Briccone before we had a sensational (late) lunch with the whole family inside the barrel cellar.

Joe opened a couple of older vintages of the amarone method "Moda" Cabernet Merlot, and I just love the Joseph Sparkling Red, it is nearly impossible to find it here in New Zealand.

Are you in the olive oil business in South Australia?

I really must get back to South Australia again, soon.

Italian wines have no duplicates in F_____, nor should they.

Italian wines are uniquley Italian. I am an American of Italian ancestry, and I drink ONLY Italian wines. No Californian. No F_____. No Australian. No Spanish. No Chilean.

JUST ITALIAN.

Get it?

I didn't say that. I said low-end Italian are better than low-end F_____, which are vastly over-rated.

The F_____ are cowards and the most useless, arrogant people on the planet.

A nation of naive, useless, arrogant idiots.

I had the unfortunate experience of flying over F_____ when I was in Europe, going from Florence to Brussels.

Okay, great...now how about that Italian champagne? Prosecco doesn't count.

Seriously though I am more happy to be proved wrong, but what do these wines cost? The QPR is what everyone likes to talk about here, and quite honestly I would actually buy Italian whites if a)they were not overpriced and b) they were not (in general) uninspiring examples of the art.

Also do you disagree with my basic premise of France being the leading wine nation or are you just wanting to stick it to me and demonstrate your knowledge? It's not that I have any truck with Italy, I have almost two cases of Italian wine in my cooler and as a matter of fact I had a great Barbaresco just last night. I'm sure those wines you mentioned are just great.

It's just that I happen to think that France can and does hold a candle to Italy in the world of wine, unlike my friend UC who prefers to call me a liar. *And* I think that France on the whole delivers a greater wealth of styles than other wine producing nations. I didn't think this was such a controversial point. I thought It was a point of general knowledge. I guess its time to throw out all my wine books in favor of the new tome written by the esteemed Pierpaolo Francesci.

ML

Indeed it was the St. Emilion one.

Wonder if all the fruit is gone already, what's left for 5 years down the road?

-Indirecto

I'm sure the French share a feeling of mutual admiration with you too.

Unless the entire population of France stole your dog, knocked up your sister and left the dishes for you to wash, I fail to see why such venom towards the French.

If its because of Iraq and / or Bill O'Reilly (your vile hateful bile sounds awfully O'Reilly-esque, or should I say O'_________ [that man embodies exactly what is wrong with the world since we are venting putrid smelly totally unhelpful rhetoric]), I suggest you should get out a little more.

I have absolutely no doubt you will never change your mind, but one can only try. Hooray for pragmatism, boo to dogma.

I'm personally greatly looking forward to holidaying in Italy and France some day soon and tasting and enjoying all the delights both (and other European countries) have to offer.

If you look through and find any posts of his under Uranium Committee or particuarly Michael Scarpetti (apologies if I have mispelt, it is from memory) you will see UC has at least a good knowledge of Italian wines, but dismisses anything non-Italian as not being as good as Italian.

Also, he has a pathological hatred of the French for reasons I am not

Occasionally its fun to poke him, but the same old tune gets a little boring for even the most mischevious of ppl in here. Plus of course its terrible etiquette in such a polite group, but sometimes its hard to resist.

So to sum up, don't argue with him. Unless you're bored and are the type of person who likes baiting the obviously rabid.

He probably would be a much-valued contributer given his knowledge of Italian wines if he wasn't so overwhemingly parochial, argumentative and hateful (towards the French and anyone who disagrees about France or Italian wines being better than anything, ever, anywhere, for ever and ever). Which is more the pity.

Why shouldn't Prosecco count? Here are the results from a blind tasting just one week ago. Note that we only had full sparklers (no prosecco frizzante) from around the world (except Austria). Prices are retail here in Austria, all taxes included. The top 33 wines from a total of 63 wines tasted:

91 EUR 17,99 Berlucchi Cuvée Impériale Brut, Franciacorta DOCG,

90 not avail. Skovin Penlivo Dry, Makedonia, 11,5%

M.

Yes, you are right; I know Joe and Dina very well.

I have a brother who grows grapes for him at McLaren Vale, and another who grows olives in the Adelaide Hills.

I have actually cooked pizza in the oven you refer to - did you know he imported it from Italy?

I am a cook. In fact my wife and I run a small restaurant out at Glenelg - a blend of Italian and French.

Our wine is 100% Australian; although I havce heard that kiwi sauvignon blanc is the best wine for seafood, and have been offered a couple, but I am not sure which would be the better choice.

I came across this newsgroup while I was looking for wine and food combinatiopns, but it appears to be more focussed on wine only, is that correct?

Marco

I don‘t think you understand. "All the fruit" has not gone. It is not there in the same very obvious way that it would be present in grape juice, or some lesser wine, because this is a much more complex wine than perhaps you are used to drinking. More importantly, however, I strongly suspect that the wine - fruit, tannins, and all - is sleeping, closed down, going through a period of dormancy, whatever expression of like kind might mean something to you. It is therefore not yet at its best and any competent and experienced wine merchant would and should have told you that when you bought it. As I said in my last post you can never judge the life work of a victim of infanticide.

This is not a wine which was meant to be drunk within 6 years of its vintage and about four after it was bottled. You might have got away with it - and experienced what you appear to mean by "fruit" - if you had drunk it in the first two, three or even four years of its life. (That would perhaps have been akin to abortion rather than the infanticide which you have committed. I leave others to judge the relative turpitude of the two offences.)

I suggest that you try to get hold of a bottle of 1989 or 1990 Magdelaine and see what you have missed by not waiting.

Timothy Hartley

His main theme when he descended upon us was than aging wine is nonsense. Any knowledge that he might have of Italian wine is over shadowed by his desire to troll. Anyone that communicates with him is propagating this trolls presence in AFW. Besides I think his real name may be Rosaphilla.