Long live the screwcap! tn

"JEP62" skrev i melding news: snipped-for-privacy@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...

So, bottle variation may be due to the glass in the bottles - or to different wine in some bottles? I don't buy that...

:-) Anders

Just one more thing, I promise.

I really don't care if my Australian Reisling will last 20 years under screw cap, I can always buy one in 20 years if that is when I want to drink it. I'm more concerned that my 2001 German Auslese and my 2000 Bordeaux will have developed properly when 2020 rolls around. I just don't believe there is enough evidence right now that this will happen under screw cap but I know it happens under cork. For the price I pay for this type of wine, the winery could certainly make sure a sound, taint free cork is used (as I think more and more wineries are doing).

Andy

My findings are similar at 5% at most.

I think that there are other areas in the winery that has caused taint and or TCA issues from barrel room etc.

There are indeed economic reasons that large mass producers would like to move to stelvin and for them its worth it and for the everyday wines fine with me. I have no problem buying a Gallo Of Sonoma Cab, Merlot or Chard with Stelvin. Since they make millions of cases...its a big savings and not worth using cork as their basic fare is worthy of an every day wine.

Rarely do you hear Chateau Margaux or Phelp Insignia make the move to Stelvin. They know that cork is better for the long run.

This is not religion for me....I actually tried the Plumpjack and noted the difference in 1997. Both were good...one far less devoloped.

Anders Tørneskog wrote:

Sure 20% when you say any flaw in the wine must be because of the cork. I just don't buy the arguments. To blame any and all bottle variation on the cork, IMHO, is not justified. There are just to many other factors that can cause bottle variation.

My experience for TCA tainted wine is much lower than 5% in the wines that I buy, and yes I am pretty sentitive to TCA. I can pick it out very easily. I have found a higher percentage of wines flawed by VA, Brett, too much oak, picking green fruit, etc. Even what we call cork taint (that musty character) has been shown to be caused by other factors than the cork or even TCA.

I also believe that wineries that are using screw caps are much more careful right now about what they put in the bottle because they want the screw caps to be accepted. Do you really think that any barrel of wine that shows any sign of TCA contamination before bottling is going to make it into bottle with screw caps? Once screw caps are widely accepted do you think everyone is still going to be as careful as they are now?

I agree screw caps are fine for most wines, but there are some wines I just wouldn't be comfortable with under them. At least not yet.

Sorry, didn't mean to open up the argument again because like I said, this issue is like politics or religion. No one will change anyone else's mind and it should never be discused in polite company :-)

Andy

Or, to put it another way. If you seal what is in effect a glass test tube containing a complex chemical solution with a bit of wet tree you're always going to have problems.

Cheers! Martin

Brett is just one of many causes of bottle variation in unfiltered wine. Improper handling during shipping is another. Bottling by hand can introduce too many factors to count. Bottling through improperly cleaned equipment. We can go on and on and on about what could cause one bottle to show different than another, even if they are taken from the same case.

I'm not saying cork is the perfect closure. I'm not saying it should be used for all wines, but to blame every and all bottle variation on a cork, IMHO, just isn't realistic. Usually when people say this they argue that there is little bottle variation for wines under screw cap but they don't take into account the use of wine making techniques that would reduce bottle variation (like filtering). These techniques are commonly used for wines that go under screw cap because the wine maker is concerned about his wine, although it's still being debated if the techniques allow for a "great" wine to be produced or just a sound wine.

I really didn't want to get drawn into this discussion so I'll shut up now.

Andy

Please do not shut up on this subject. My knowledge base is not as good as yours but my experience is what you are saying here.

It is about time some in this group started the truth vs. propaganda campaign on cork vs. screw cap.

dick

Anders Tørneskog wrote:

Brett is just one of many causes of bottle variation in unfiltered wine. Improper handling during shipping is another. Bottling by hand can introduce too many factors to count. Bottling through improperly cleaned equipment. We can go on and on and on about what could cause one bottle to show different than another, even if they are taken from the same case.

I'm not saying cork is the perfect closure. I'm not saying it should be used for all wines, but to blame every and all bottle variation on a cork, IMHO, just isn't realistic. Usually when people say this they argue that there is little bottle variation for wines under screw cap but they don't take into account the use of wine making techniques that would reduce bottle variation (like filtering). These techniques are commonly used for wines that go under screw cap because the wine maker is concerned about his wine, although it's still being debated if the techniques allow for a "great" wine to be produced or just a sound wine.

I really didn't want to get drawn into this discussion so I'll shut up now.

Andy

One of the truths is that a wineries sanitation problem or shipping problem is assigned erroneously to the cork.

Although New World wineries are thought to be pristine in the fermentation and bottling of a wine, the extent of winery's sanitary efforts are curtailed by pencil pushers at corporate headquarters. The meeting with the winemaker(usually the original owner who went with the corporation) chief accountant AKA CFO, pr person & CEO is something like this"

CEO: You know Phil we are really happy with the increased sales of your whole line although we are disappointed that your infused fruit wines have not taken. However we need to do some belt tightening here, Marvin. Marvin the numbers cruncher Yeah Phil, Alice and I had your barrel germinated chard the other day at Denny's and it was a treat. Everyone here at corporate are so proud to have you in our little tent. (Lots of affirmative nodding). As Stan said cash flow is tight; our stock is down and sales in Dubai are lower than anticipated. Looking over your numbers for the last five years, you spend $96,000 for new and cleaned barrels every year. If we can put that off this year, you can reach our expense goals for the winery and under our personal contract with you, still give you and Fran that $50,000 bonus. Phil the former owner: Fellas we're going to get more send backs if we don't keep optimum sanitary conditions. Abe(the PR guy):Phil, Phil, Philly always with the clean thing, we got you out of the wine geek stores & restaurants and got you in Costco, Denny's and Big Boys Deluxe. Who's gonna notice a little schmutz. Ok I know you gonna say something about your luxury line, "Founders Delight" the wine geeks and dorks still buy them especially since we stuck a Monet or Gaughan on the label. Stan why not let Phil keep the faith on the Founders line & buy a few new barrels?............The discussion goes on about the revised budget for new barrels, and you can see why in the end Phil gives in.

Bottom line sanitary considerations are only one entry in a long list of expenses. Shipping & storage is the other contributor to the badness of a wine. Continental shipping in trucks without heat or air-conditioning happens every day and although a foreign firms the ship only by "reefer" oft times its an empty gesture as goods sit in a hot or cold warehouse and linger on docks. Guys like Kermit Lynch & Bobby Katcher can't be everywhere though they try. I doubt if there is one major importer with stockholders and over

The above doesn't explain why the cork growers & producers allowed the quality issue to get out of hand, too much time on the Rivera? other fish to fry? To some of them 21st century sanitation concerns are beyond comprehension as they are mired in the days before the Great War( To Gen Xers:That's WWI-- it was in all the papers).

"Richard Neidich" wrote in message news:8Ts%f.4011$ snipped-for-privacy@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...

Sadly that is how it really works. Many here in this group assume the winery is there to serve us outstanding stuff. In reality the ownership has gotten more and more corporate with each passing breath. This corporate atmosphere reduces art and turns every decision into $$$$. The only romance that is done is to make us feel like we count. Thay they are holistic in their handling and caring for the grapes.

This is a business and cost cutting is done to acheive price points to sell product. The romance of years of visiting Silver Oak went down the drain when I saw it at my Costco...$52 for 2001 Silver Oak Alexander Valley. :-)

"Joe \"Beppe\"Rosenberg" wrote in news:Qu6dnXcfpdGKOaPZnZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

Verbum Vincit

"Richard Neidich" wrote ...........

Then again, there are many in this group who say that 95% of the worlds wine is very VERY ordinary stuff, and who realise that there are distinct classes of winemaker.

Yes, there is the factory operation where the wine style is determined by the marketers and the laboratory is the most important part of the process - turning out wine with mass appeal - generating corporate profits.

Then again, there is the artisan - unique people who make wine with a passion for turning a raw material into their expression or their artform - some is excellent - some is rubbish - much of it "in-between" but all of it interesting to those of us involved "in the search"

By far the largest volumes of wine are made in far flung corners of (mostly) Europe by families scratching out a living in plots dating back centuries - "vin ordinaire" for the ordinary people.

I don't think that any in this forum have the expectation that this is "outstanding stuff"

Whoa - this is a bit emotive from you Dick! ;-)

Again, I do not believe that the village operation in France or Italy is concerned with "art" - they just make wine, the way their fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers did.

Certainly the Corporates are concerned with the almighty $$$ (that is the American way - like making hamburgers with no meat or vegetables)

I believe that many of the people who correspond within this forum truly appreciate those winemakers in the artisan mould - those smaller operations whose wine reflects their regional "terrior" - and the difficulties each vintage presents - and the ideas which the winemaker wishes to express.

And (getting back on to topic) this is the reason many NZ winemakers are choosing alternate closures to cork.

Winemaking has enough challenges - imagine persevering through difficult growing conditions; harvesting at that moment of perfect balance between under-ripeness and over-ripeness; working 24/7 turning this raw material into your expression of perfection, only to risk spoilage from the closure, which is only there to keep the contents in the bottle.

In my experience, the closure is the afterthought in the winemaking process - I simply do not accept that winemakers deliberately make their wine giving consideration that the wine will be influenced (negatively or positively) by the cork.

That is like saying that a chef will choose the very best of produce and ingredients; will slave in the kitchen preparing his/her signature dish, and put it on a plate, knowing that at some time prior to the customer eating the meal, the plate will have some sort of effect on the meal, unintended by the chef,

That is rubbish - the plate is merely an inert instrument - necessary for presentation, but in itself, not part of the meal.

To me, that is the role of the closure: necessary to contain the contents of the bottle, but not to influence the wine in any way.

I myself don't care if my bottle is sealed with a piece of rocking-horse s*it - so long as it has no effect on the wine.

I haven't toured many European wineries, maybe only a dozen or so over the years but I never noticed unsanitary conditions. While I never saw one that had the production cleanliness of a California or Oregon winery, I always thought this was part of the mystique of European wines. Perhaps there isn't mystique, just outdated management. Certainly the shipping issues are quite different bringing bottles from Europe or across the US and bret has been present in California wines as well.

"Lawrence Leichtman" skrev i melding news: snipped-for-privacy@news.east.cox.net...

I can't speak for other wineries than those of Germany. Common to almost all I see is a painstaking attention to cleanliness - any sloppiness is immediately obvious in the final product, irrespective of which bottle you open. A small vintner I know about fell in trouble some years ago, his wife left him and he drowned his sorrows. I and others used to appreciate his wines, but from one year to the next they became very poor, near undrinkable... Anders

So when you tour the wineries you probably alway check the unused or soon to be used barrels. You then take notes if they were recently cleaned with sulpher...etc....

A neat, tidy winery is not necessarily one free of TCA related issues that have nothing to do with the cork.

But hell, lets ignore the possibilities of cleanliness.

dick

The debate over corkage is endless but it indicates a new concern on the part of consumers about imperfections of smell, colour and taste. 25 years ago you had no one in England, Europe or the United States concerned about sanitary conditions. The big West Coast companies made sure there were no impurities in their wines because they knew most consumers would balk at a cloudy color or funky smell. Until Parker, Robert Finnegan and a few others, everyone else were shills for the industry. Most newspapers dealing with wine had these standard articles 1)the arrival of Beaujolais Nouveax 2) wines with turkey & Christmas & for gifts #0 How is the Bordeaux vintage and

It was only after American wine writers who actually critiqued a wine did wine writers have to know something about winemaking and not just push something their industry friends wanted to move. A few Brits would write "Redolent of the earth, all the aspects of the wine have not knitted together, which is so true of Senor Iguana's Rioja in its youth and there a trace of fecal matter in the nose which in 20 minutes will blow off. You should obtain 2 or three cases for your beef & Yorkshire pudding."

Its a long winded way of saying 20 years ago no one got pissy if they had a bottle with a bad cork. Since they were told it was all good, who was the consumer who dared question the winemaking, so they kept drinking fearful a store would degrade him if he attempted a return.