Passive Cellar Question

I'm trying to decide where to put a passive cellar. Orginally I thought the place was the NE corner of our basement. Pretty much all below grade. The problems with this are (a) we have to run dehumidifer in summer as Betsy keeps music there, which raises basement temps to upper 60s and obviously dries it out, & (b)it's not that far from furnace. I figure both of these are solvable with good insulation and vapor barriers, but it will also take up a hunk of our small basement. So now I'm thinking re one end of the area under our front porch. I think it used to be the old coal bin, I use it for storing garden stuff, etc. This space has stone walls on 2 sides that have ground behind them , and a stone wall that separates it from basement. Concrete floor. Above there is just the wooden porch. I'm sure that if I put an insulated ceiling (joists with roll insulation between) across the tops of the walls on that end, and insulated the (now open) side with an insulated wall and door, it would be cool enough in summer. The other advantages is that it would just need one wall with door and ceiling, putting cellar in basement would require two walls plus ceiling. The question is, would that be enough to keep wine from getting too cold in winter? Around here (just north of NYC) we usually hit single digits a few nights each winter, with a scattering of days with highs in the teens. We sometimes have winter cold spells where it doesn't go above freezing for a week. To make the space useful, the ceiling would be at ground level (or very slightly above). Any experience with using this kind of space for wine? Thanks for any opinions. Dale

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Dale Williams
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Hi Dale, You need Richard Gold's book "How and Why To Build a Wine Cellar". I built an experimental wine cabinet ( place was the NE corner of our basement. Pretty much all below grade. The

Reply to
Dick R.

Hi again Dale, The coal bin might be the perfect spot. Based on Gold's book, and my experimental wine cabinet, I would suggest you also insulate all the walls. There can be quite a variation in ground temperature winter to summer, and that cold/heat is transmitted through the basement walls, but the basement floor maintains a fairly constant temperature year-round. So, super-insulate the ceiling, insulate the walls, and install an insulated door. For humidity, Gold uses a towel suspended above a pan of water. I did the same thing, except I added a 12v fan from an old PC. The fan blows through the suspended towel that is wicking water from the pan below. Not sure how well this would work in a larger wine cellar. BTW, your winter temps sound balmy compared to winters in Minnesota where temps can easily reach -25 F.

Cheers, Dick

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Dick R.

I think the outside thing will get too cold. Insulation slows thermal change, but it does not stop it. A month at -10, and inside and outside get to -10.

I have a passive cellar in the basement. 6'below grade 3 walls drywall, concrete wall to outside, and floor. Wife runs the humidifier and the furnace is also outside. I insulated the heating/cooling ducts that ran through the room. The ceiling is 1" fiberglas panel. The room stays at 65-67F(cooler in summer from A/C). I don't think the temp is too high, and the humidity too low, as I don't plan to store anything for more than 20 years. I have some

88-90's purchased on release. The corks still work, and some are still tannic as hell.

Humidifiers do not work particularly well through a double drywall walls.

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gerald

True, insulation will only slow the temperature change, but 20 feet of dirt on two walls is a lot of insulation. It should act as a pretty good heat sink.

Dale,

IMHO, this sounds like a good place for your cellar. Just make sure the ceiling is well insulated. That sounds like where most of the change in temp would come from. I would insulate the floor too. I didn't and I'm regretting it. It transfers heat from other parts of my basement and the garage.

I would also make sure there are no water issues. Stone walls are notorious for weeping when the spring thaw comes. A good thick vapor barrier should help, but you may have to provide somewhere for the water behind the barrier to go.

I would also be concerned about water issues from the ceiling if there is just a porch above it. You may have to build some type of ceiling below the porch floor, put a vapor barrier above it, any angle it to one side so the water has some place to go.

Just remember that water is really only a problem if it has no place to go.

If you want to take this offline, I'll share my mistakes and what I plan to do this winter when I rebuild it.

Andy

Reply to
JEP

I'll do a job on the ceiling! As to floor, I'm counting on it for coolness in the summer. It's a separate pour of concrete, separated from basement by thick (18"+) stone wall.

from the ceiling if thereis just a porch above it. You may have to build some type of ceiling >below the porch floor, put a vapor barrier above it, any angle it to

Good points, thanks for pointing out!

Thanks. I've ordered the Gold cellar-building book from library. If I have more questions I'll email!

Thanks JEP (and others) for some very good concrete suggestions! Dale

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