Wine Cellar

LOL, sounds like a room I would never want to leave :^) "Honey, can you throw down another box of crackers?"

Dave, a small part of your solution may be to go to a website where you can spec out central heating boilers by entering in room specifications. Some of these will allow you to get a btu value per room as you go so you could find some info based on your room spec.

I hope that helps a little.

Jim

just out of curiosity, if you've got all these messy projects going on in this nifty walk-in cooler/hobby room wouldn't you want some water & sewer lines to maintain sanitation? alzo- having an air tight soundproof room with only 1 egress PLUS gallons of vino has all the makings of a straight to DVD melodrama.... just thinking out loud... regards, bob

=============================================================================TOPIC: Wine Cellar

============================================================================= == 1 of 5 =Date: Sun, Jul 15 2007 10:34 am From: "Dave In WA"

I want to build a 10x10x8 foot room for storing home made wine and if the flavors won't mix also cure ham, and make cheese. I want to heat and cool this room using ground source water. Here is my plan...

1. dig a trench (backhoe) at 10-12 feet deep and place looped plastic tubing (used for radiant heating in concrete) I'll assume 100-200 feet and

0.50 inch diameter (OD?).

1. fill with 50/50 glycol and distilled water, with expansion tank (pressurized bladder, the kind used in radiant heat). I might need to add anti bacterial chemicals to liquid.
2. add small (low voltage, wattage) pump to circulate the mixture from the ground to a closed radiator with small fan (low voltage, wattage)
3. room will be insulated with rigid foam, fiberglass bats, vapor barrier, OSB panels with white fiberglass sheeting covering the walls (ascetics)
4. no air will enter/leave this room..the fan, radiator will be inside the room (plumbing through the wall), the pump and expansion tank will be on other side of wall, other room.
5. I would need a thermostat and controller to turn on the pump (start fan) when the inside temp is over 57 degrees and/or under 47 degrees..this will keep the room between 47 and 57 degrees (plus/minus "set back point" on thermometer)
6. OPTION: would using radiant baseboard (full perimeter) at floor with 2nd and 3rd loop of perimeter baseboard at 2 foot intervals (from floor) eliminate the need for the fan and radiator? (and provide enough transfer of "energy")
7. all stainless or brass fittings, no PVC.

Environmental conditions...

1. Western Washington gets some 20 degree days in the winter and it has been high 80 during summer..not too extreme, and not for extended period.
2. not looking to hold a very tight tolerance..i.e. if in December the room is 43 that is OK, and likewise in the summer at 60...( +/- 3 degrees would be acceptable)

Scalability: How do I determine the length of pipe, trench length, volume of liquid (assumed in pipe length), pump volume and ability to pull or push liquid from 16 feet deep (12 hole and 6 feet from ground level), fan CFM and area of "radiator"?

What is my calculated BTU loss from this super insulated room?

I have taken the temperature of the ground water on my property, but if it's

50 degrees down there..can I get to 47 degrees?

Any websites that would help???

The only way to get lower temps than are available naturally is to use a heat pump. My guess is that you are considering using too little piping underground. Why do you need antifreeze? If the lines do not run above ground, they won`t freeze. PEX can withstand freezing. Doug

You have two kinds of head to overcome. Part is that caused by the tubing itself. This will vary according to flow rate and you can find a fair amout of information on the net, look for irrigation. The other part is the head by pumping that 16', if this is a closed loop then most of that will only be needed to initially flood the system. You can run parallel tubing to reduce head loss if needed. I'm not sure how much contact area you will need to keep from scavenging out all the surrounding heat or cool, but it will depend on ground water and a host of other concerns. You may be able to get some idea from ground source heat pump calcs, but not from me!

Calculate the temperature difference between inside and out for each wall, floor or ceiling and then divide by the R value of that surface. Multiply that by the square feet. So for a rough figure for the whole slapdoodle with an R value of 40 and a temp difference of 20F (520 ft2

• 20 /40 , 260 BTU/hr, some 6000 BTU's or so per day. That's a pretty high R value... We're solar believers here in alt.solar, but that is only a bit more than a kWHr a day, or perhaps a dime or so a day to heat with a small space heater on 23 degree days.

Not sure how without adding more cooling.

Give it a few days and Nick might be around with some calculations and some ideas. My own thoughts are that condensation might be a big problem...

If you are pouring the slab, consider embeding that radiant heat tubing in the concrete and doing away with the radiators.

Jeff

Dave

Don't know much about the tech part, but maybe some common sense alternatives.

1. Heat rises, cold falls. Heating exchangers go down low and cooling exchangers go up high (like in your frig) Done this way there is no need for fans. Convection does it.

1. If your house is on a well and ground water is ~50F, you have an easy alternative which will eliminate most of your work and expense. Route the well water thru your exchangers and then back out to the pressure tank. Each time the pressure tank cycles, a new batch of cold water is drawn into the exchanger. No need for pumps, the well already has one. No need for expansion or water hammer tanks, the pressure tank has one built in. A bypass pipe and some shut off valves will let you route the water back directly to the tank so you can work on the system when you have to. (and shut it off if it springs a leak)

2. You can improve your heat exchanger by using the kind of exchangers used in hot water base board heating systems. The kind with copper tubing and aluminum fins.

1. You will need to vent such a room to get rid of the stink and accumulated gasses. To do this as quickly as possible to minimize the amount of heat drawn in, you will need an exaust fan of some kind. (and cycle the water as soon as the air is exchanged) I would only do this when (before) I wanted to enter the room.

2. If you don't already have a well, you may find it less expensive to have one put in rather than the system you are planning. Might be worth doing a cost study. You can always route the output out to an irrigation system for your lawn/garden/whatever. Put the output on a timer to control the cycling of the system. (eg. the kind used for automatic sprinkler systems)

Anyway, just some thoughts. HTH

PS - personally, I would never make ham, cheese, and wine, all in the same area.......And vinegar gets made at someone_else's_ house !! ;o)

Frederick

Hmmmm, have you overlooked the idea of digging a "cave" while you have the backhoe? Instead of building a room, dig a hole. Line it with concrete block walls. Excavated dirt mounded over the top. If your water temperature is 50 degrees, presuming Farenheit, the subterreanean temperature should be pretty close. And very stable, summer or winter. Earth is a good insulator.

Don't forget solar energy to power pumps and stuff. Wait, you said Washington. My experience with Washington is the sun only shines one day out of 20, solar might not be cost effective. --LOL--

A half-horse pump will easily raise a 16-foot water head. Two-stages work best -- that is, pump the water into a pressure holding tank.

Take a serious look at using convection to move air. Think about going to the local junk yard for automobile heater "radiators" and build your own heat exchangers with low power/cost fans.

Insufficient input for BTU calcs. Complicated process.

Sounds like a fun project. Oh yeah, do a serious cost comparison against refrigerator style "cellars." Mine is great. Did I mention that the diurnal temperature here in the Mojave Desert can swing more than your annual temperature variation. The winters here get down to the mid-teens and the summers go into the mid-hundred-teens.

Keep us posted on your progress step-by-step. Sounds interesting.

Seems to me that in the gardenweb greenhouse? section there was discussion of such things- obviously taylored to a different direction. Maybe some good info. I'm also in western WA.