Red wine: the older the better, and white?

"Ramon F Herrera" wrote ......

Ramon, by far the greater volume of the worlds wine production, white, red and otherwise is not made for aging to any degree.

One can take a "vin ordinaire" and age it for 5; 10; 20 years and it will still be average at best, but more probably average vinegar.

So, "the older, the better" applies only to wines of quality, which are made to "go the distance" and this applies equally to white and red.

Yes, there are magnificent red wines from Bordeaux and Burgundy and the Rhone; from Italy and California and Australia which people lovingly store and enjoy decades later.

Likewise, Riesling (from several regions in Germany and Alsace); Chenin Blanc (good Vouvray is virtually immortal); Semillon from the Hunter Valley in Australia are renowned for their longevity. I have enjoyed vintage Champagne 40 years in the bottle; Grüner Veltliner from Austria is said to age very well; white Bordeaux from Graves can be a joy cellared for 30-40 years.

Wonderful white Burgundy (Le Montrachet, Corton Charlemagne, and the Meursault 1er Crus) is 100% chardonnay; carefully cellared are wonderful decades after bottling.

Sweet whites; Sauternes, late-harvest Rieslings, and Tokaji (and even some of their New World equivalents) - can age and improve for years (centuries!!!)

The list of ageworthy whites is just as long as a list of reds.

I once read that the oldest, still-living wine ever tasted was not red but was a German Riesling from the 1540 vintage. It was tasted in 1961, after

I would classify "the older, the better" as a gross generalization in regards to red wines. Some reds benefit from a bit of cellar time allowing the tannins to soften and the flavors to integrate however most red wines today are meant to be consumed on release. Bordeaux is probably the best known red wine for aging (as is Port) but there are plenty of wines from a variety of grapes and regions that can gain complexity and depth with age but to many it's an aquired taste. White wines are best consumed young with a few exceptions. Sauturnes tend to age fairly well as do many sweet white wines. White Burgundy can age well but there has been an issue of premature oxidation in the past few years. As usual there is no hard and fast rule and let your palate, your wallet and your wine purveyor be your guide. Hope this helps.

You need to learn a lot more about wine. Try getting a good book.

And even these wines fade away after a while.

No, that's not at all correct. Most wines, regardless of color, are made for current drinking, and will rapidly start to go downhill if not consumed with a year or two of purchasing.

And even for the better, more expensive reds, they will get better only for a certain number of years. Then they too will go downhill. For how many years they will continue to improve depends on the particular type of wine, who made it, and what vintage it is, and is never easy to determine. Deciding when to open that prized expensive fine red you bought is a difficult problem--too soon and you drink it before it reaches it full potential; too late and it's faded and going downhill.

You often see messages here from someone who has found (perhaps in the cellar of a deceased relative) a 20-year-or-so-old bottle of an inexpensive red wine, like Mouton-Cadet. He wants to know how much the wine is worth and how to go about selling it. The sad truth is that the wine is way past its best days, is worth nothing, and is probably undrinkable.

The same is true for whites. Most are made for current drinking and only a few benefit from aging. The only differences are that the number of reds that improve with age outnumber the whites that improve with age, and that most ageworthy whites take less time to reach their full potential than ageworthy reds do.

UC, I am wanting to chose between 3 books, Sotheby's, the new Hugh Johnson coming out in September, or Oxford. Which one do YOU like the best and/or would recommend for a novice. Thanks. Dee

What a shame that some folks (UC) feel that a very reasonable question deserves condescension. As many have said, "older does not necessarily equal better" even for many red wines. But here are a couple practical suggestions for you:

• No wine should be aged unless you have appropriate aging conditions. There are a lot of resources on the web you can access for buying or building a wine cellar or cabinet. If you wish to pursue aged reds, it is a wonderful thing to have a cellar full of appropriately aged wines.
• As others have pointed out, If you are buying the more common / popular wines off the shelf, most (not all) have been vinified with the intent of you drinking them now. So buy them and enjoy!
• If you WANT to age wine for the purpose of enjoying it at it's best, search out those wines that have been vinified with that in mind. For instance, I collect and cellar Bordeaux reds. Each year I buy a few cases pre-arrival and then cellar them. How long depends on each wine - see below.
• If you do cellar red wines, pay attention to winemaker and taster notes; both their assessment of a wines maturation, and also the relative tannins and acidity.
• If you are interested in white wines that develop some complexity over time, search out those wines made with that intent - and they are few. Again, pay attention to winemaker's and tasters assessments, and cellar them properly. I buy a case or so of white Burgundy each year - and cellar them for 2 years (typically) before drinking. Again, most off-the-shelf white wines are not vinified with aging in mind.

Good luck - and don't be put off asking questions by the curmudgeonly amongst these forums. They usually are just hiding their own profound inadequacies.

Ram>

UC only reads books about Italian wines, printed in Italy or certain Sicilian neighborhoods. All three books come from the UK where the role of wine writer and seller are often overlapping, Huge Johnson is the more trussworthy of the 3.

Only about 10% of vin rouge are worthy of age For vin blanc its 5% tops:

White Burgundy/Chablis-US=Chardonnay Viognier Fiano di Avellino Champagne all dry

Rieslings- Spatlese or sweeter Barsac/Sauterne Loire whites from Chenin Blanc Tokai Porto all sweet

"joe beppe" skrev i meddelandet news: snipped-for-privacy@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

! >>>> Viognier Do you really mean that? If there were any white varietal of a certain class I would believe to be of low cellarability, it would be Condrieu - to my mind, (dry) Condrieu is, like, drink within 3 years (possibly 5, tops), then it has died ... admittedly, it is an iffy varietal, and Condrieu can be sssooo diasappointing ...

Cheers

Nils

meddelandetnews: snipped-for-privacy@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...

I've had a few Ch. Grillet that had aging potential,also some of the Left Coast Viogniers can age--maybe not as long as a chard. Volpe Pisini makes a pinot grigio that can age. Forgot about Vendage Tardive Gewurz from Alsace

I did not answer condescendingly. I was trying to point out that the question was too general to answer simply. It seems too me that the poster needs a general introduction to wine, based on his question.

The Wines of Italy by David Gleave M.W.

Thats being rather narrow to the op's question. Besides, I for one don't care for Italian wines in general. There are a few that are worthwhile...just a few!

I assume you mean Hugh Johnson's Pocket Book? If you live in the UK, get it anyway as it is not expensive. If you live outside the UK I am not really sure how relevant it would be. Some of the content obviously is, but I doubt all the wines he mentions wodl be readily available.

Or did you mean the Johnson/Roinson Wine Atlas? I am not sure it is really that helpful for beginners, but it is a great book. And if you want to know more precisely where your wine comes from, I'd get it.

The Oxford Companion is my personal favorite. Not something for reading from cover to cover, but great for getting answers to specific quesions. You will also find some of the longer articles very readable. If you would rate yourself as a serious beginner, get it. But I can imagine some beginners might be a bit overwhelmed.

I haven't read the Southerby's encyclodpedia, but I know it has a good reputation. It is is logically ordered, rather than the Oxford Companion alphabetical ordering. So in that sense it is better for reading larger chunks. Also has more pictures and maps.

If I had to chose ONE, I think I'd go for the Southerby's book as it covers all bases. But they are all good, and the Companion is my all time favorite wine book.

Or maybe go for something more basic like Michel Schuster's Essential Winetasting. That is, I think, more likely to answer tasting questions concisely, and it also has a more general section on wines.

If you have a specific allegation, then make it.

I'd particularly like to know about Jancis Robinson's involvement in selling wine and how that makes her less trussworthy than Huge.

Steve, as a person most decidedly living outside the UK, I would say that the Hugh Johnson pocket books are excellent QPR. We have bought them, mostly in translation (to Danish, or French!) for years.

Cheers

Nils

Ramon,

As others have likely stated (too busy to read all replies to this thread right now), it's on the palate of the beholder. This is true for both reds and whites, though some, who like older reds, might not like older whites.

Also, note that most wines are not vinted to age, so only a select few, reds & whites, will even hold up with age.

If you like your reds with age, try some well-structured whites, and see if they are to your liking.

Hunt

I would respectfully disagree. I took the time to read all of the posts to the thread, and feel that the OP got some very good info to the question posed. I cannot find fault with any of it, except to say that I have had very good older Viognier, but never an older Gwerz. OTOH, maybe it has 100% to do with the ones that I have sampled, so I cannot directly even fault that.

Hunt

Most white wines do not age well, and are best drunk within two years of bottling. There are a few exceptions, mostly expensive wines from F_____.