Shiraz - Wine Rookie Question

Thanks!

My apologies Kyle, I don't think that's quite spot on. The last syllable is certainly not pronounced "gay" as in "a gay picnic" bit closer to "goy" as in, well, goyim; but with a hard 'y' on the end, perhaps "goy-uh".

It's not exact but as close as I've come to putting it into english phonetics.

HTH,

-E (writing from Le Cercueil, which rhymes with Bourgueil.)

ARGGHHHHH!

] Emery Davis wrote: ] ] > On 20 Apr 2004 21:36:12 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (Kyle in Seattle) said: ] > ] > [] ] > ] 4) And finally... Bourgueil = boor-GAY. ] > ] ] > ] > My apologies Kyle, I don't think that's quite spot on. The last syllable is ] > certainly not pronounced "gay" as in "a gay picnic" bit closer to "goy" ] > as in, well, goyim; but with a hard 'y' on the end, perhaps "goy-uh". ] > ] > It's not exact but as close as I've come to putting it into english ] > phonetics. ] ] ARGGHHHHH!

Sorry Dan. I did try to find an audio for you on the excellent (and sometimes afw contributer) Strat's place, but sadly bourgueil is not listed. You may find it useful however; the pronunciation for shiraz is given at

-E

It may be a bit OT, but I've always found this topic interesting as it relates to automobile brand names. My instinct is always to try to pronounce a name the way it's 'home country' pronounces it, especially when the subject is completely indigenous to that country.

The name Porsche is a prime example. All over the US it's usually pronounced "PORSH", when every really knowledgeable source will say "POR-SHUH".

Also, only a small number in the US will say "JAG-YOU-ER" (or similar), the way it is pronounced in Great Britain and by every transplanted Brit I've ever heard say it. Americans, almost unanimously, will say "JAG-WAHR".

I try to say "SHIR-AZZ" because I consider that variant to be "indigenous" to Australia. But, "SHIR-AHZ" does come more easily. Probably because of Syrah.

For a long time, I pronounced the word Meritage as if it were French ("MER-IH-TAHJ". It 'seemed like' it should be French. I was corrected and looked it up on the Meritage Assocation website. It's definitely pronounced like "heritage'. I should have known, as the term is, apparently, indigenous to the US.

Actually, some people pronounce it, "PORSH", for the same reason they say, "SHEVY", for Chevrolet. [And how do you pronounce, "Chevrolet", if you stick to the pronounciation according to the country of origin? "CHEV-ROW-LETT"? :-) ]

Regards,

- Roy

=*=*Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. - Mark Twain The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. - Oscar Wilde

Niles Crane pronounced it Shir-AHHHZ in 'Whine Club' - surely he must be correct?

OOPS! I'll admit, I messed up on that one. Despite 9 years of French, that's a combo that eluded me, especially since it's so uncommon. I also think it's a tough one for non-French speakers to reproduce. My French contacts liken it to the French word "oeil", meaning "eye", which would make the pronunciation of the final syllable (which receives the stress) as halfway between "goy-uh" and "gu(ee)(y)", which is tougher than hell to write out unless we could post in IPA!

Thanks for the gentle correction, Emery! I stand... corrected! :-)~

Kyle in Seattle

in article snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com, Roy at snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote on 4/21/04 10:32 AM:

That's an interesting take, and one that I have never considered. Adding the "UH" to "PORSH" seems barely more than a quick exhale at the end, not really a shortening of it or a "nickname" (as I would consider "Chevy" to be for Chevrolet). Further, I certainly have no real knowledge of French pronunciation (and may be about to prove it), but the "AY" sound at the end of Chevrolet always seemed to make sense given that I've thought final consonants are generally not sounded in French. Is it really pronounced "Chev-ro-lett" in France (or Switzerland, where Louis Chevrolet was born)??

Much of my thinking on this has been that the difference is that Porsche is a man's name (Ferdinand Porsche, a German) and the car is made in Germany, so it seems something of a liberty to Anglicize that pronunciation. So... the Chevrolet question is really quite central to this.

Any third opinions out there?

I've

goes?

Anyone ever seen the film with the skit in which Peter Cook plays someone who is taking a singing audition and asked to sight read a song he's never seen before?

He sings "You say toMAHto and I say toMAHto..." with the most puzzled expression on his face.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:10:46 +1200, "st.helier" took the time to tell us :

My first wife's grandma was a Scot, after 65 years of her life down under.... I still could not understand a word she said. :>) We ALL have an accent. Accents are the 'terroir' of our voices (to keep it On Topic). The Oz/Kiwi stir always circles around 2 words..... we say fish (ok....feesh) and u say Fush. We say six.... u say sux. A Queenslander talks differently to a Melburnian, as different again to a Taswegian, a Sydneyite etc.

Working in Buffalo for a stint, I found it easy to pick a Canadian accent from an American, (which endeared me to the thankful Canadians...:>)), but as I asked Tom S in another post, found it bizarre in many parts of the States, that folks there vehemently denied they had an 'accent', almost being insulted by my suggestion (which was normally a guess of their region of habitat). Often conversations thus were modified and went as...

Hey Bill, are you a New Yorker?" "Yeah...how did ya know ?" "Ahh, it is your acc.... umm...just a guess"

Hooroo......

Swooper.... PS: Hope you haven't forgotten our little wager. Would hate to think a Trans Tasman rivalry could spring from a welshed bet..:>)

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 01:01:34 GMT, "Tom S" took the time to tell us :

OK...ART...AHT..... whaaaat's the diff...:>) It ain't an "A" was the point.

Tell me Tom. On my many sojourns to the States, I soon learnt not to acknowledge/comment regarding an "accent" for many Americans, as they would quite harshly respond. "I don't have an accent...you do". I started to pick a NY'er from a mid westerner, a southerner etc etc, but it seemed to me many americans took to the suggestion they had an accent (or as I said, we ALL have accents) as an insult. Any comments?

Regards Swooper

Dunno, Swoop. In my experience, most people don't think they have an accent until they travel far enough from home to hear others speaking with a _different_ accent. However, Californians (and most West Coasters) often buy in to the "no accent" business because they sound like what they hear on TV (for the most part). As a youngster, I was once told by a Midwesterner that I had the _strongest_ California accent that he'd ever heard -- that threw me for a loop! Personally, I think that regional accents are wonderful, and I decry their diminishment in this age of cultural homogeneity and pervasive televsion.

Mark Lipton

One _could_ argue on the basis of Relativity that we _all_ have accents. ;^)

Based on the mainstream media in the USA, however, the Western US version of the English language seems to be the most commonly spoken in this Country. Not too surprising really, as this is where all the TV and movie studios are based.

Tom S

I'm not sure that many parts of the country are adverse to admitting their accents. Southerners seem to be quite proud of theirs as long as you pick out what area of the South that they're from! I had a similar experience in France when travelling through Burgundy. I remarked to a Burgundian shop keeper that I was having a difficult time following his French because of his accent. He got somewhat indignant and remarked that my French was so bad that he preferred to carry on in English....and he didn't speak any English! Bi!!

Spelling it correctly - Bourgueil - is already half the work. The first half is quite similar to "boo", the second comes close to "gay" (but more like the "ai" in "maitre d'") , with the stress on the second syllable.

M.

My French is passable because I live in Canada and took it as a kid in school (and had to revive it when doing graduate work) and have travelled in France (amazing how much comes back to you - listening to them saying that these Canadians aren't the blackguards the Americans last month were and being able to agree with them in French is fun).

I nevertheless have the most trouble with the accent in the South - they speak some sort of Provencal patois that defies even my finely tuned ear....