sulfites

Does she have problems with white wines? White wines have sulfites as well although generally perhaps not as much as some reds. The amount of sulfites added to a wine depends on the pH of the wine. For example a wine with a pH of 3.6 will require about 60 ppm. A wine with a pH of 3.5 will require about 50 ppm and a wine with a pH of 3.4 will require about 40 ppm. I think you can get an idea of the relationship. A lot of the California wines are high alcohol, and high pH. White wines generally have lower pH than red wines (around 3.3 or so) and therefore less sulfites are needed.

If you want to experiment with reds you might try a wine that is generally a little more acidic than some such as a Chianti or Sangiovese. These may have less sulfites - depending on the winemaker.

Also note that most red wines are barrel aged while most whites are not - exceptions of course for some Chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc. I personally feel that some people experience problems with reds not because of sulfites but because a lot of commercial red wines are aged in new oak or are heavilly oaked. I think it may be the oak tannins from the barrel that is the source of headaches and not necessarilly the sulfites.

In my opinion, a lot of commercial wineries over oak their wines. One way to cover up defects in a wine is to oak the hell out of it. Some people like the smell and taste of oak - like a cigar box. To me, this completely covers up the fruit of the wine. This is just a personal preference - a lot of people like a lot of oak and many are unaware that whay they are smelling and tasting is NOT the fruit of the grape but the barrel it was aged in.

I do not know which comercial wineries use older oak or not as much oak aging. This will just take some research and experimenting on your part. Personally, I make my own wine - about a 100 gallons a year and have my own backyard vineyard. A lot of people who say they don't like dry red wines change their mind when they drink mine because I am not a fan of heavy oak and I age my wines in an older barrel that has already given up a lot of its oakiness. The wine still benefits from micro oxygen uptake through the staves. Hope this helps.

If she doesn't have problems with white wines, then her allergy to sulfites isn't at the root of her headaches. Red wine headaches are a medical puzzle with no clear explanation. Tannins have been suggested as a cause, as have histamines. She might try taking an antihistamine like Claritin before drinking red wine.

That's a phantom. Red wine generally has lower sulfite levels than white wine, but virtually all wine has some (sulfites occur naturally in grapes... and bananas).

Mark Lipton

My understanding is that white wines generally have far less sulfites than reds. She claims her sinuses give her a lot of trouble after drinking reds.

I'll have her try that and see if it makes a difference.

Most of the reds I've seen that state on their labels that they contain no sulfites are also organically grown. I have no idea how the two can be related. Seems like a separate issue.

I was unaware of both these facts. Could you give more details and explain why?

I thought the sulphite content AT THE TIME OF BOTTLING merely reflected the winemakers doubts about the the sterilty of the wine and bottling process, and fears about bacterial infections in the bottle. IOW, good winemakers that are confident about their product and processes, and able to properly control sulphur, will bottle with low sulphite levels. Those unsure will whack in a good dose of sulphites to be on the safe side.

Sulphur and SO2 are used in various earlier stages in wine growing and making, but a lot of this will have blown off by the end of the process.

Here is everything you need to know about sulfites in wine and why it is used and calculating the amount used. Some of the material is quite technical but it is easily skimmed and you can get a good understanding without becoming bogged down. Hope this helps

No, see the above link.

See the above link

Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff.

So it seems that "molecular SO2" is what is required to keep the bacteria down. And that more acidic wines require more "free SO2" to maintain the level of the molecular form.

But this site also points out that, as white wines tend to be more acidic than reds, they tend to require MORE SO2, not less. (Most of what you wrote was correct, but your final logical conclusion went the wrong way.)

Typical values quoted on the site for free SO2 in mg/l on bottling are: dry white: 20-30 sweet white: 30-50 red: 10-30

You can certainly strike the word "merely" in what I wrote, as pH is a factor.

Otherwise I don't see anything on the site to contradict my statement.

NO. a higher pH means LESS acidic. I know it is counter intuitive but look in your chemistry book. For example, a pH of 3.3 is a LOT more ACIDIC than a pH of 3.5 Most water will have a pH of somewhere near 7.0 depending on the source and how it was treated. Again, a higher pH wine (less acidic) requires MORE sulphite.

Yes, white wines generally more acidic than reds and hence LESS sulphite is required.

OK. Understood now (it was not the meaning of pH that was my problem).

But for some reason Ben Rotter (quoted below) still seems to think reds can typically contain less sulphur than whites, even dry whites.

I don't know myself but the "Wine for Dummies" book says that red wines contain far less sulfur than white wines. They say it's because tannin in red wines acts as a preservative, making sulfur dioxide less necessary.

That's right. Both sulfites and tannins act as antioxidants by reacting with molecular oxygen. So, the more tannic the wine, the less sulfites needed. Additionally, or perhaps tangentially, most wine drinkers prize freshness more in whites than in reds, so sulfites are more needed in white wines.

Mark Lipton

Good point, Mark, thanks for elaborating.

I style my reds differently than a lot of commercial wineries and sometimes I get stuck in my own mindset.

I do not use new oak or age for a long time in barrel and hence tend to make my red wines more in the manner of white wine production. I have even cold fermented some red wine and it did indeed preserve the fruitiness. I think some commercial wineries are starting to sort of lean in this direction also. I worked at a commercial winery for a couple years after I retired.

I ferment at a slightly cooler temperature, avoid over oaking and adjust my SO2 by the rule of thumb I mentioned earlier - pH 3.3 - 30 ppm, pH 3.4 - 40 ppm etc.

I try to never let my wines get above a pH of 3.5. A pH of about 3.35 to

3.4 (for reds) is what I am for. Above a pH of 3.5, if the sulfite is not adjusted appropriately, the wine will be very short lived. It will often times also develop Mercaptans - which can smell like fingernail polish remover or can favor the growth of Brettanomysis, with its barnyard, rubber boot flavors or develop a film yeast which if left untreated can impart off flavors and aromas.

Tannins do indeed act as a preservative and you can let a highly tannic wine sit open for longer than a low tanic wine without adverse affects such as oxidation. Tannin is a natural antioxidant.

It is this property of tannin which makes me suspect that the recent literature that suggest that red wine is supposedly better for your heart health than white wine comes, in part at least, from the increased tannins in reds since most whites are not fermented on the skin, are not barrel aged (exceptions of course) and therefore have a lower tannin content than red wines.

I suspect, but have never seen published, the benefits of tannin as an antioxidant and hence health benefits. I know there are other compounds in red wine that are supposedly beneficial to health but I also have read that small amounts of whiskey also supply some benefit. Remember, the color in whiskey comes from aging in oak barrels and hence picks up some tannins from the barrel. Just a coincidence perhaps but maybe some future PHD could do some research on the affects of tannin as antioxidants and the benefits of it.

There is really is no way you can generalize SO2 content based on the color of the wine. It's just not that simple. There are many factors involved in determining how much SO2 is added to a wine and there are even different measurements. There is total SO2, free SO2 and molecular SO2. Some of the factors involved in how much SO2 is added are pH, aging regiment, tannin content, residual sugar, oxygen exposure, closure type, ABV, if MLF wanted and I've probably missed some. The list is just too long to generalize.

As an example, a german Auslese will most likely have a lot more SO2 than a simple Beaujolais, yet a Rioja Gran Reserva probably has more added than a buttery, oaky Chardonnay.

Andy

Determine, no - Generalize, yes

There are different ways to Measure but the AO method is the preferred one. The Ripper test is far less accurate.

Free SO2 is what is used to determine antioxidant properties and anti spoilage properties.

All true but pH is a BIG factor if not the biggest factor - GENERALLY. True, if you intend to drink your wine very soon, it is less critical - BUT if you are a winemaker and you barrel age your wines, a high pH can promote spoilage organisms that can ruin your barrel and barrels are expensive. For example the acetobacter may be high but barely detectable when drinking but the barrel when refilled will be contaminated and subsequent wines will suffer or be ruined. The only thing that can be done then is turn that barrel into a planter for flowers or whatever.

SO2 will inhibit residual sugar from restarting a fermentation but will not prevent it. I do not see residual sugar as an issue unless you are trying to reduce the chance for renewed fermentation after bottling. There are better ways to accomplish this.

ABV - have you ever tasted Sherry or Port - both are high alcohol wines and they are OXIDIZED wines. In my opinion high alcohol is a poor way to stabilize wine unless you are more interested in a buzz than a nice fruity wine.

Oxygen exposure is bad for any wine - unless you love the port or sherry taste and bouquet.

Closure type is insignificant. I know there is a lot of controversy about it but there are some drawbacks to the pop trend for screwtops.

It think GENERALIZATIONS are valid and useful guidelines but your point that there are many variables is well stated.

Most Beaujolais are drunk young and hence no need for long life storage.

Any kind of "buttery" wine has undergone Malo Lactic Fermention (ML) and therefore sulfites are not used or sparingly used because they inhibit the ML culture.

Getting back to the question of the OP, GENERALLY white wines will have a lower tannin content. It may be the tannins - especially from the oak that is causing his wife's problems. GENERALLY white wines need less SO2 because they GENERALLY have higher natural acidity. His wife did not have a problem with white wines so I think it makes sense for her to try to find a low tannin red - or perhaps get to know an amateur wine maker who does not barrel age his or her red wines. Unfortunately, there is not way to find the SO2 content in a wine unless you have your own AO test apparatus OR you want to spend about $12 to have a lab analyze it for you. Ripper test will cost a little less but is less accurate.

I'd second you here, especially as sulphites are commonly used as preservatives in other foods (salad bars) and people don't seem to blame them! I don't know whether it is still done, but butchers used to spray meat with SO2 solutions to keep it red.

The histamine (and other biogenic amines) idea is the one that seems most likely to me, especially as I believe red wines have higher biogenic amine levels. Other options are the tannins, aldehydes (higher levels in reds), alcohol metabolism...no one really knows.

In our wines, sulphur levels are relatively uniform across reds and whites (25-30mg/L). It certainly has been common in the industry to bottle reds with lower sulphite levels, however the fear of Brett etc has led many to gradually tweak these upwards. There is no rule of thumb to say that a given wine will have a particular SO2 level - pH is a guide, but is very often ignored. Many of the high pH wines that are currently favourable are bottled with "normal" sulphite levels. SO2 is important for prevention of oxidation as well as biological control, so it is a complicated juggling act. These days most commercial wine use SO2 for prevention of oxidation and sterile-filter before bottling - this is very common for whites, and for large volume reds.

Cheers,

Andrew

I disagree. As my examples show it really has nothing to do with color of wine and more to do with other factors. Yes, pH is an important one but not the only.

Not just different ways to measure, different measurements. Total SO2, Free SO2 and molecular SO2. That last is not measured, but calculated based on free SO2 and pH. My point is we don't really know what could set off a reaction in the small percentage of people that are allergic. A red wine could have relatively low Free at bottling but could have high Total SO2 added over extended aging and even with low Free could still have relatively high moleculer because of a very low pH. Which one triggers the reaction?

Not really. Molecular is what is important but we can't measure it. We can only measure Free and calculate the molecular based on pH.

pH is important in determining how much Free SO2 is needed to reach the proper molecular. A lot of the other factors I mentioned effect how much Total SO2 is needed to keep the Free at a level required for the proper molecular.

It has nothing to do with restarting fermentation but with bacteria that love the sugar or can feed on the Sorbate (if it used instead of sterile filtering). On top of that, MLF is usually not used on sweet wines so you want to make sure there is enough SO2 to prevent it. They can also be aged longer than many other wines. All of this can require more total SO2 than other whites and even a big percentage of reds.

Once or twice :-) It is not a way to prevent oxidation, it does help with bacterial stability. BTW, not all Port and Sherry is oxidized all that much.

There are an lot of wine makers using micro-oxygenation that would disagree. Barrell aging certainly allows some oxygenation. It's the level of oxygen exposure rather than an absolute.

Some closures are known to scalp SO2 and some are shown to preserve it. Closure type definitely has a impact on how much Free SO2 is needed at bottling. BTW, I don't disgaree with your statement about drawbacks for screw caps but that's a different thread (one that I try to abstain from).

Thanks. Great conversation. I hope we didn't bore other members.

Andy

Thank you all so much, from a long-time lurker, for a very enlightening and entertaining thread. Where else but usenet? I think I'll have another glass of cab now.

I'll drink to that.