Typicalness, typicity

'Typicity' has been used as a code word by certain growers' organizations in Europe to suppress experimentation. For instance, the original "Super Tuscans" were for many years labeled as "Vino di Tavola" (the lowest classification) because they were not "typical" for Tuscany. Our correspondants in France can attest to the various abuses "typicity" has been put to by the INAO.

Mark Lipton

Mark,

True, but let's look at this. Would we really be better off if Chianti could be

Sure, there are abuses by grower associations of typicity, and good growers like Marc Angeli & Didier Dagneau (sp?) have had to fight battles (somethey won, some they lost). But I for one value typicity (though I'm thinking more of regional typicity that strictly varietal , unlike Rich). I want to buy Muscadet that tastes like (good) Muscadet (substitute Chianti, Fleurie, Quincy, Santenay, or whatever). I don't want any of them to be generic "good wine." This is one argument that is mostly gray areas, not black & white.

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

You're preaching to the choir, Dale. I'm not damning the whole idea of 'typicity' but was just trying to explain why some might view it disparagingly. Since the dreaded "International" style is the alternative to typicity, I'm far from opposed to it. Bring on the meaty Rhone wines and the steely Chablis! More, more!

Mark Lipton

You are of course both right. Typicity is used to describe to what degree a wine from a certain appellation is representative of that appellation. In France, INAO defines more or less what that typicity is, most often it is just a matter of defining varietals, yields and winemaking technique. But wines uner the appellation system undergo a yearly vintage tasting, done blindly by a committe of the producers themselves. They can decide (democratically) to reject a wine as not typical. But democracy has its risks, and a particular winemaker can be easily recognized, not just when he makes bad wine (in which case you would want his wine rejected), but more to the point, he can be rejected when he makes a particularly GOOD wine. Hence a lonely hero making great wine in an appellation where mediocrity is the majority risks being cut out. This is the case with many great winemakers (among others, Jean Thevenet, Patrick Baudouin, Francis Poirel, Patrice Lescarret, Antoine Arena, others). This is how the appellation system and a loose concept of typicity can stifle innovation.

There is a petition by the Reseau Semences Paysannes going around proposing our support for innovative winemaking and viticulture. It adresses precisely these abuses. A group of 80 winemakers, sommeliers and wine merchants is reacting to the ONIVINS rules prohibiting the use of grape varieties not on their lists for each region. They consider that this stifles any evolution of the french wine scene, especially considering that we are undergoing climate changes. It is a reaction against the rigid AOC rules that impose one way of making wine and do not tolerate any creativity, except at the expense of having one's wine demoted to Vin de Table (Vin de Table cannot mention vintage or place of origin !).

To increase diversity, they propose:

-dropping law suits agains innovators

-allowing planting of varieties of vinifera not on the lists, and not just the partial experimental allowance.

-authorisation t osell such wines

-authorization to use mass selections (most AOC only allow clonal selections)

- allowing experiments in winemaking techniques, within the legal definition of wine.

-allowing the mention of vintage and origin on VdT wines.

Bye

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

I agree. I went to an international pinot noir tasting here in Alto Adige last week and tasted about 40 of the 70-some available wines. The best of them were from Alto Adige(mostly 100% PN), but some from "down south" were just *not* pinot noir. Some had very suspicious color also, leading one to imagine that cab or some other grape had been added. Others reminded me of sangiovese, part of which could be terroir, however. But some were not in the faintest sense recognizable as pinot noir. If I drink a blend, I want a blend. But if I order a varietal, it should be recognizable as such.

If your frame of reference is Alto Adige, what you recognize as typical pinot noir might not find much agreement from tasters used to Burgundy or Oregon or Alsace. And rightly so, because typicity is more associated with terroir than with varietal. This does not mean that pinot noir from other areas il not as good. It's just different. Just like Syrah from Hermitage is not the same as Syrah from Languedoc or Tuscany or Australia.

Now if some of the pinot noir you tasted was actually augmented with other varieties, that is another question.

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

I am *from* Oregon, and am quite familiar with Oregon pinots, and know some German pinots, French pinots and so on. These in my opinion were *not* just pinot, and if they were, then I don't what made them taste the way(s) they did. Many of them were additionally just plain not good wines. There is a list at

Mike that is one of the most revealing posts that I have ever read in this group. I am shocked that great wines could be squashed by such a bureaucracy.

Thanks Bill. One thing that I might point out is that such bureaucracy was created by the winemakers themselves. NOT BY GOVERNMENT.

Interesting, no?

Mike

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

It is great when people discover that bureaucracy exists out side of government. The worst bureaucracy I have ever encountered was not in government at all but in IBM which was close to the largest company in the US a few years back. I tried to buy 600 computers from them and some receptionist could not put me in contact with anyone with out a number or a name. I called people that I knew in the company and they could not break the code either. I purchased the computers elsewhere.

Sounds like they gave you the brushoff in order to not undercut their retailers. Isn't that S.O.P.?

Tom S

Interesting, yes! Are you speaking of Europe? I don't think anything like that exists here in the USA yet. And I hope it never does - at least in such degree.

Isn't it great though, to live in a free country (and I'm including Europe and the others) where you can be openly critical about stuff like this and not have to worry about being shot or arrested for politely (but firmly) registering your complaint? I know that human nature impels us to take such freedoms for granted, but once in awhile I take stock of reality in a more global sense, and make a point of smelling our roses a bit more - at least for a little while...

Tom S

I was just about to ask you whether Gottardi's pinot was in the tasting (the producer actually being an Austrian wine merchant based in Innsbruck) when I saw the results.

M.