Wine Hype or Significant?

It's a real term. Free run juice means exactly that: it's juice that runs freely from the grapes prior to crushing them. (What's going on is that the weight of grapes on top of them is enough to crush them without any other force being applied) Why is it important? Crusing grapes mechanically can lead to crushing the seeds and squeezing juice out of the skins, both of which contribute tannins to the wine. The term is most frequently used, though, in the production of sweet wines, where the free run juice is higher in sugars than the rest of the juice. Was your Sauvignon Blanc sweet by any chance?

Mark Lipton

I'll disagree just slightly with the esteemed Mr. Mark (whose opinion I seek out diligently on this forum - so I stand willing to be scolded). 'Free run' is most often (IMHO) used as a qualitative descriptor with red wines. As Mark pointed out, when wine is pressed, many of the tannin carrying organic compounds are pressed out of the skins. 'Free run' wine is, in some opinions, softer and more desirable. In my own winemaking experience, this is really a big "it depends". Some wines are preferable with more tannins (big reds in which the winemaker desires aging) whereas some (for instance, some of those softer Aussie reds these days) are intended to be consumed young.

Some - myself included - are slightly skeptical of the nuance here. Much more impactful to the tannin content of the wine are things like delestage (taking the cap off of fermenting red wine, pumping over the wine, and leaving behind the more tannic seeds and jack stems - making the wine LESS tannic), or inclusion of stems in the vat (making the wine MORE tannic). Assuming that the caps are punched down regularly, there is little difference in tannin content between the 'free run' and the press juice.

With white wines the skins are not fermented nor are they in contact with the grape juice for any length of time after crushing. The incremental tannin production of pressing is modest, especailly given that the skins of white wine grapes have relatively much less tannins to begin with. If you really want to play with tannins in a white wine

- leave the jack stems in the fermentation vat. You'll get quite a different wine.

Personally, if I saw that on a label of a white wine, I'd consider it marketing hype.

Really? I can't recall seeing it used on a red wine, but perhaps I just travel in the wrong circles ;-) When I think of wines designated "free run" I think of Tokaji Eszensia and Huet's 1er Trie Vouvrays.

Indeed, it makes little to no sense with a red wine, since fermentation is conducted in the presence of the skins and pneumatic presses can avoid crushing any seeds. What could possibly be gained from using free run juice in a red wine if you're keeping the skins around during fermentation anyway?

Can't argue with that. That's why I asked about the sweetness.

Mark Lipton

Maybe he speaks of what the French call "saignée"?

"Free run juice" definitely is a nonsense in dry white wines. Only very, very little juice runs freely. Winemakers want to have whole berries coming in, not cracked or busted ones which leads to a possibility of unwanted oxidation.

M.

Mark, I do know that in the case of BV George Latour Cabernet they claim that the Georges is the Free Run Juice only. That BV Napa and Rutherford bottlings are crushed. They tell you that at the tasting room.

Also I know a few wineries...that have 2 labels, a single vineyard or reserve where the reserve is free run but the standard bottling is not. Example, Sawyer Cellars and Reverie.

I guess I have traveled the right circle at least once.

Sorry, but that's utter nonsense. You simply cannot make red wine without crushing the grapes. Red colour comes from the skin of the berries, so pre-crush free run juice from red grapes is white.

M.

Free run is a real term, but from a quick reading of the replies here so far, I don't think it has been explained correctly yet. It is simply the juice you get without pressing.

If you are talking about white wine the grape will have to be CRUSHED, i.e. have their skins broken, to get this juice. But no pressure will be applied, which is what is involved in PRESSING.

For red wine, it is what freely runs out of the fermentation vat. Then all the stuff that is left would be pressed, and at least some of the press juice woudl be added back to the free run juice.

In both cases you would tend to avoid, for better or for worse, the more tannic and bitter bits by only using free run juiice.

So what we come to is "free run juice" is just "vin de goutte", and the other is "vin de presse." Much ado about nothing, in other words, since many makers don't include the vin de presse in the top cuvées. And in all cases the addition of vin de presse must be handled with care.

By "all the stuff" I take it Steve is referring to what floats to the top of the fermentation vat, the marc in french. (See recent thread on grappa).

-E

I don't know the French terms. Do they apply to both red and white?

For white wines most winemakers, even for their top wines, would press wouldn't they? But of course modern presses can be controlled to be very gentle anyway.

Apart from wondering whether it all finishes up at the top or not (after the liquid has been drawn off the point is moot anyway!), yes it the marc.

Live and learn. Thanks to Mark and all who added their thoughts.

I see this a bit wasteful though. Pressing is pressing whether done mechanically or by other the weight of other grapes. I expect that the grapes at the top of the pile would be least pressed, if at all. Would the grapes be stirred/mixed to equalize the pressing or would they be further pressed to produce a different wine?

Also, while the w> AxisOfBeagles wrote:

Well, red I guess. As Michael points out the white has to be separated from the skins first. I don't think the remainder at the top of the fermentation vat would be pressed.

Yes, indeed. But that's pre-fermentation. Otherwise, you'd be making red wine, as Michael again points out.

The marc does go to the top, the goutte can be drawn off the bottom for unfiltered wine with remarkably little junk in it.

-E

I have read elsewhere online somewhere that the opposite is true - white grape skins are very tannic and that is one of the reasons they are removed from the winemaking process at an early stage. Certainly white wines that have a little skin maceration, e.g. White Musar, can be noticeably astringent.

I would be very intersested if you could supply more information as I'd like to get to the bottom of this issue.

Michael, I hear you but that is what they said.

Is it possible "Free Run" means something different to different people?

They were very specific to mention that on a tour there. It was like if the juice that initially comes from grapes using a baloon in the pressing machine is different than all the remaining from a crush. The initial flow is what they claimed to use for their best bottling. They refered to that as the free run juice.

Then the remaining was "pressed"

Probably marketing hype but that was said at 2-3 wineries.

Hmmm.

Hmmm again. In fact I don't know.

That's how you would proceed with white wine.

Red wine procedure is - with our without destemming - crushing, giving all that into a fermenting vessel and ferment. After two to three weeks it's very well possible that part of what has fermented runs off freely. Hugh Johnson (in my 1971 German edition of his Wine Atlas) indicates that roughly one third runs off without pressing.

Possibly simply a misunderstanding of what "crush" means?

M.

Yeah, I did not get it either.

Some Champaigne at my local w>

That's simply impossible, because there is no free run juice, period.

They most certainly mixed it up with what is called "cuvée" in Champagne, 2,050 liters of must coming from the first pressing of 4,000 kgs of grapes. 500 further liters of lesser quality is the "taille".*) I frequently have heard from better Champagnes to use the cuvée only, but never ever from free-run juice.

HTH a little,

M.

For the most part it is marketing overkill.

I like to read the post by those who have never made wine in their entire life and yet act as if they were experts.

As an amateur wine maker, I make about 100 gallons of wine a year. After I retired as a Geologist, I worked part-time for a commercial winery for a couple years

Some wine makers will keep the "free run" separate from the press run (and even keep the different press runs separate). Usually, for the most part, most are eventually combined.

It is not intuitively obvious, but if you collect "free run juice and pressed juice and put them in separate tanks or carboys, the "free run" will have more suspended material which may cause H2S and or other reductive problems in the wine than the pressed fraction.

Presses will generally NOT crush seeds. There are good things in the juice in the skins and pressed juice. It is over-hype or just plain nonsense to think that "free run" is superior.

If you don't believe it, start a new adventure in your life and make your own wine.

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote ......

OK - I have stayed out of this discussion, but feel it is time to throw in my 2 cents worth.

Discloser: I am not a winemaker - I *was* one of those misaligned "marketers"

My thoughts and recollections are thus:

Red Wines (we made a more than acceptable Pinot Noir) = No such thing as free run.

Grapes were destemmed, and crushed, and fermented in open fermenters, plunged and pumped over to get desired extraction of tannins and colour.

White grapes were treated differently.

We grew chardonnay, Riesling, pinot blanc and pinot gris.

All were crushed and destemmed, and dumped into the press(es).

All juice which drained without any form of pressure was termed "free run" - and kept fermented separately.

Juice which was pressed "light, medium & heavy" was also fermented separately.

Depending upon what the winemaker was trying to "express" - he would blend wines accordingly.

So, it was possible for "free run" [chardonnay] juice to be fermented in oak barriques, but a portion of pressed must to be fermented in stainless steel, and blended in with the free run wine - according to the winemakers will.

IMVHO, if one was speaking of red wine, the term "free run" is irrelevant.

However, I do place some credence if one was discussing white wines.

I think there is a confusion here between free run wine and free run juice.

Free run wine(vin de goutte) is the wine (red) obtained from grapes (red) that have been fermented and macerated and that have not yet been pressed. Free run wine is not white, it is red, due to maceration in contact with skins for a certain number of days.

Therefore, there can only be free run wine in red wines, because white wines are (normally) not macerated, they are pressed right away on arrival in the cellar and afterwards fermented with no skin contact.

Free run juice is a concept that only applies to whites, it is the unfermented liquid produced before applying any pressure to the grapes, and it is removed before pressing because it would otherwise take up room needlessly in the press. It is usually combined immediately with the juice coming out of the press.

Some may process this free run juice separately, under the pretext that the press juice is inferior somehow. That may have been true 30 years ago, before the modern gentler presses were introduced. Today's presses for white wine are mostly pneumatic, the grapes are put in a large cylinder with a membrane, and air pressure is applied to the top half, the membrane applies a very gentle uniform pressure to the grapes in the bottom half.

I suspect that today this free run juice thing is mostly marketing hype.

Mike

st.helier wrote: