Concerns about Acidity & PH!

If I were you, I'd hit it with ML _now_! I might also bump it a little more with KHCO3, but you're pretty close to reasonable numbers now. Early inoculation for ML takes advantage of the heat spike in the early stages of fermentation; ML likes it _warm_. With luck, the ML will complete soon after the primary. Add Leucofood and Leucovit if you have them, and stir the lees once in awhile while the ML is still active.

Tom S

WOW! I wish you warned me about the CO2 expulsion. I just added 20.4g of KHCO3 and holy jumpin' Jesus!!! I was greeted with an explosion of CO2 that send foam flowing like a volcano out of the top of the demijohn! Luckily, I had a towelI use to cover the demijohn during the day next to me... it avoided a serious mess!

I recalibrated my PH meter and before adding the KHCO3 the new reading was 3.08, much lower than I previously stated. The PH is now at around

3.15. Should I hit it with more? I don't know how long it takes to "hold" after adding it to the wine. I took a sample after about 5 minutes following the addition (and cleanup). :-)

What is your recommendation?

As for the bacteria, I was following the manufacturer's recommendation, which was to wait until after fermentation has completed. Doesn't this have to do with the development of Diacetyl or competing with nutrients, something? I plan to add Fermaid K after an 8 brix drop. Is there a risk to adding the bacteria earlier? I can add it now... I guess I'm following "the book," since I'm new at this.

Thanks for sharing your experience...

-Paul

Update: Added an additional 20.4g (40.8g total) of potassium bicarbonate. New Ph reading is: 3.22.

-Paul

Leave it alone now. It's not a good idea to get too "busy" with wines.

Tom S

LOL! I saw the same thing happen a couple of weeks ago at a commercial winery when someone decided to adjust the pH the _other_ direction with tartaric acid. It was a 5000 gallon tank of white wine that was in mid-fermentation. Sounded like a jet plane kicking in the afterburners as it shot a fountain of foam out of the manway!

recommendation,

Competition for nutrients is an issue with some strains of yeast - particularly Bayanus (e.g., Prise de Mousse). That's why I recommended adding ML nutrient and vitamins. You can add the ML later, but I follow the Wine Lab's recommendations on that and add just as the yeast is taking off.

I plan to add Fermaid K after an 8 brix drop. Is there a risk

I've heard things about increased production of VA when inoculating for ML early, but I have had no such problems.

Tom S

Hello Paul,

I suggest you use a bit of patience here and let your wine ferment out before making any further adjustments to your pH/acidity. I believe dissolved CO2 from fermentation can cause the pH of the juice to decrease which effect will be eliminated after fermentation and degassing. As far as ML is concerned, I would again wait until fermentation is complete to determine if you even want to induce ML. After many years of drinking wines from California especially, I personally have come to prefer non-ML chardonnay. It seems to age much better than the heavily oaked and buttery (from ML) versions. Additionally, wines with a high malic acid content can give a disagreeably strong diacetyl (buttery) aroma if they undergo ML fermentation. If you decide you want to prevent ML altogether and try a more steely dry chardonnay style, use a very small amount of oak and hit it with 500ppm lysozyme.

By the way, if you continue your winemaking endeavors and obtain white juice as you described in the future (low sugar, high acid), consider making a sparkling wine. That juice would have made a fine base for a sparkler!

Good Luck and CHEERS!

Aaron

recommendation,

recommendations

Hi Aaron... thanks for your comments.

Based on my tastes for Chardonnay, I specifically wanted to do ML. I don't care for fruit-forward Chardonnay or the overly dry, light, non-complex ones. I LOVE a Chardonnay that has a pronounced butter and oak base with fruity highlights underneath... I like it complex. The California Chardonnays are some of my favorites, like Kendall Jackson and Toasted Head.

So, I added four cups (10oz) of Stavin medium toast+ French oak, which I'll leave in through long term aging. I figured ML with sur lie and batonnage should add the butter and complexity I enjoy so much.

I like your idea for a sparkling wine... I never thought of that. I've taken to this hobby like a moth to a flame, so I'll certainly be looking to explore different types of wines in the future. Thanks for the suggestion.

-Paul

Well... that story makes me feel a little less foolish. :-) But, I guess this craft is all about trial and error, and making mistakes is just a part of the learning process. I'll never do that again, I'll tell ya' that right now! When I added the extra addition of KHCO3, I added it in small increments, stirring gently. Worked great!

I'm tempted to add the ML bacteria now, as you suggest. Do you know anything about this strain of yeast (CY3079) and if it might compete with the Enoferm Alpha? I was originally thinking of following the book on this one, since it's my first time, then making adjustments on future batches.

But, I respect your experience and approach, so I guess I'm torn. Hmmm...

-Paul

Noted... Smells pleasantly fruity with a nice balance between sweet and tart. It makes me nervous to mess with it too much.

-Paul

Funny you should ask. I've been using CY3079 for a few years now. It's a saccharomyces strain, so there's no problem with simultaneous ML. You still should dose the juice with ML food and vitamins though.

Tom S

Interesting... having never done ML fermentation, I never knew about ML nutrients until yesterday. I ordered 50g of ACTI-ML yesterday for delivery by Thursday. I plan to use that during the ML fermentation.

Oh, question... do I need to rack the wine to a smaller vessel that allows for no airspace at the top? I currently have 12 gallons in a 15 gallon demijohn with a decent amount of airspace. Is this a problem when doing the ML fermentation?

-Paul

Yes it does, John... thank you!

-Paul

Paul,

You're aware that you need to heat and cool samples of actively fermenting wine (to drive off CO2) in order to get accurate pH and acid measurements? I'm guessing you are, but I don't think anyone else mentioned it in this thread so I thought I should just in case...

Cheers, Richard

That's a good point... I've been doing that when testing TA but not for PH or Brix/SG. For that I just spin the hydrometer to get the bubbles off it. It seems to give me a pretty good idea of where the gravity is.

Do I need to boil-off the CO2 when doing PH and hydrometer readings?

-Paul

I make my chardonnay without MF or oak. I use montrachet yeast which does cut malo. acid and tends to prevent MF. After 6 days primary I rack it to a keg and don't touch it until spring. It seems to have a mild butterly taste, but still has a nice fruit taste. Tim

To be honest, I'm not sure about pH readings. I think I used to heat/cool my samples with my Checker meter and noticed a difference between before and after heating/cooling. That was way back when, when the damn thing actually worked, which was before I went into limbo waiting for my new pHep5 to arrive (ETA apparently unknown at this point, still waiting for a reply from Presque Isle)

:-(((

For hydrometer readings, I've always done exactly what you described and have never heard of anyone heating/cooling the sample first. I don't think there's enough CO2 to really effect that, but it apparently causes some kind of chemical mayhem with the way the other tests react with the ions in the solution in measuring pH/TA.

Richard

Yeah... I agree, Richard. Myself, I never feel totally comfortable boiling a sample before testing unless I know it's really necessary. With the hydrometer, it seems to me boiling it will evaporate some of the water and concentrate the solids in suspension. I could be wrong, but wouldn't that affect the hydrometer reading?

Like you, I just spin the darn thing. I have watched it and noticed that without spinning, it will change the reading by about SG .2 or so. I give it a spin and it returns to its previous reading. No biggie...

I have a pH electrode probe meter that's about $29 from eBay. I _just_ received comparitive pH test results of my wine from a reputable testing laboratory. My pH meter was calibrated and the wine was not boiled to remove CO2. My meter read exactly 3.40. The lab read it twice on two seperate reference meters. The meters were calibrated prior to each reading. The first read 3.41; the second read 3.48. The average is 3.45. The lab representative said it's not necessary to boil the sample prior to doing the pH reading.

-Paul

Paul S. Remington wrote "I never feel totally comfortable

You're exactly right. If you boil your sample it will get rid of CO2 dissolved in the wine. If you boil long enough it will also get rid of some of the wine volume...thus changing everything. If you really want an accurate %TA reading, following a boil, you should dilute the sample with distilled water back to the original volume. Then test as usual. For specific gravity readings I think it's sufficient to just spin the hydrometer to cause CO2 bubbles to release. Then take your reading.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas