How does beginner winemaking differ from beginner homebrewing?

It would seem that all you need to do is buy yourself a wine kit and one extra fermenter - but you may already have that since you speak of "glass tubs"

Certainly if you were using polyethylene fermenters I would recommend that you should not use the same ones for beer and wine. I make beer only a couple of times a year but I have totally separate equipment for that purpose.

Using glass it should be easy to make sure that all traces of a previous "brew" are removed whereas with polyethylene there is inevitably some element of tainting -- I even have different fermenters for my reds and whites --I am not sure it makes any difference but I do that anyway.

With regard to differences, you have caught the main one --- time and patience bring great rewards with wine. Also since the end product in wine is of a much higher abv it is more resilient to infections and is more tolerant of less good methods. I have had a couple of failed beer brews over the years but I cannot think of a single failure in making wine. I would also say though that many beginners in this hobby interfere with their early ferments far too much ( they want to see what is happening and feel that "something must be done to it "). Whereas wine really benefits by being left to get on by itself at the various stages. Certainly the concept of "time and patience" is a real asset to the home vintner

That's what I did. Of course, I've also ended up purchasing an extra 3 gallon carboy for the dessert/specialty kits, too...

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Speaking of reds, how's that Crushendo kit coming along, Pinky??

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Having gone the homebrewer -> home winemaker path, I've found that it is a bit easier to be a home winemaker than homebrewer. With paranoia that a lot of homebrewers (like me) have with sanitation, that's one less item you have to learn with home winemaking. The lack of needing to boil is also a good thing.

--Mike L.

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fairly simple

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Some type of corker, unless you're using screw cap bottles. Campden tablets or Pot. Meta and a gram scale. There is some additional testing equipment, but you can probably get by a few batches before buying that stuff.

Yes. They are called wine kits (just ingrediants, not equipement).

Andy

What is the testing equipment? We have a hydrometer, but no wine thief. Would I need something else?

If you buy a wine kit (which I would also strongly encourage), you probably don't need anything more than the hydrometer. If you were starting from grapes or some other fruit, you'd want to test the acidity (which would likely need some adjustment), and for that you'd want an acid test kit (probably $10 to $15). Eventually, you may want to test your wines for SO2 levels (if you're aging for months/years), that's another inexpensive test kit. But kits are designed to have the right sugar levels, acidity, etc., so you really don't need much. And kits include all the ingredients you'll need (yeast, finings, sorbate in case you want to sweeten it, etc.) Get one of the entry-level (4-week) kits to start; they are less expensive and are ready to drink sooner. The white wine kits tend to be a bit nicer (and ready sooner) than the reds at the same price level.

Happy fermenting!

Doug

A wine thief is good to have. I was talking more like an acid test kit, pH meter, chromotography test kit (for malic acid), SO2 test kit or Titrets. Many people get by (especially with kits) without any of this.

If you get into buying fresh grapes there is a whole set of other equipment you may want to look into to make things easier.

Andy

Absolutely unnecessary. My own personal experience, shared by many other people, is that there is no transfer of flavour or aroma from wine to beer or vice versa from any equipment, including plastic. The most telling example of this comes from the time we put some ginger beer in a plastic tank. The smell of ginger permeated the plastic and you could smell it for years afterward. Yet no ginger smell ever went into anything else that went into that tank. This need for separate equipment is a myth that needs debunking.

Brian

The biggest difference is in the level of sanitation required. Beer needs more. It has lower alcohol and higher pH and those things add up to increased susceptibility to bacterial spoilage.

Sulfites are not a reliable source of sanitation for brewing. I highly recommend Five Star's PBW for cleaning (Oxyclean is similar and I'm told people get comparable results) and Star San for sanitizing.

Adequate pitching rates are also important in brewing to get fermentation underway quickly so bacteria have less chance to get a foothold. For a 5 gallon batch, 15 grams of dried yeast would not be too much, even more if you are cold pitching a lager. If using liquid yeast, make at least a pint starter for ales, a half gallon for lagers. Let the starters finish, settle out, and rack off the liquid so that all you are pitching is the yeast slurry.

Yeast selection and fermentation temperature will play a much larger role in brewing than they do in winemaking. Brew beer according to what your environment can deliver for best results. It won't be long before you want to buy yourself a spare freezer with temperature controller. Useful for wines as well, if you want to cold ferment and cold stabilize.

Brian

I hear what you are saying Brian but I shall continue in my practice of using different fermenters for wine and beer.

To me it is an unnecessary risk in what is a relatively expensive hobby. I suspect it is also dependant on the quality of the containers being used. I have always been aware that polyethylene containers should not be used for long term storage of wine and of the need to keep other possible tainting products well away from such containers due to the inherent permeability of the vessel walls.

If a container smells of a product ( as all my fermenters do ) then there must be some residual material which has combined with the internal surface of the "plastic" container. Whether or not that transfers to any future contents of that container I am not prepared to risk any spoilage of my expensive musts

So I accept that your experience is in an opposite direction but I shall just continue as I am and will express my opinion in this way and I do not accept your debunking of a "myth"

The only difference in my sanitizing between beer and wine is the beer is boiled.

Agreed.

highly

I think this is where you and I disagree. While sulfites in the beer won't be very effective because of the pH, a strong sulfite solution is very effective for equipment. I even store my (clean) fermenters and carboys with a little sulfite solution in them. When it's time to use, just drain and use.

Andy

If it continues to work for you, fine. If you get an infected beer, seriously consider switching sanitizers.

Brian

Just to be precise, I did not claim that my anecdotal evidence debunked the myth. I said it needs debunking, and the only way to do that is through a rigorous process of controlled experimentation and evaluation (just to prove what I already know to be true). ;-) If there was such a definitive study that laid this to a merciful rest, it would save people the bother of accumulating separate equipment for their wine and beer hobbies.

Tell me, if you decided to take up sake brewing, would you get a third set?

Brian

My previous reply was not intended to be "stirring" or impolite to you in any way. However I hold to my previous post in total.

My point was that this does not need to be "debunked". I certainly do not know that your stated "anecdotal evidence" is by any means true or not. What I said is that I will hold to my opinion based on my experience, smell, and taste --- which appears to be different to yours.

I was not entering into an altercation on this subject but you were making a statement that in a "stand alone" situation was untenable.

I do not believe that my last post on this subject said anything other than my opinion and experience was different to yours and that I would hold to my opinion. I would also mention that your first post professed to proclaim the experience of others, without any qualification

"My own personal experience, shared by many other people, " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I made no such statement -- purely a personal opinion reached after some 30 plus years of my hobby of making my own alcoholic beverages.

I might also say why does Calvados taste of apples and Cognac is definitely from wine and casks ( and don't tell me that the solera system of the casks absorbing many years of sherry don't not add to the flavour of the end product!)

All of this is in the land of imponderables. Just sit a can of Kerosene along side one of your polyethylene fermenters for a couple of weeks and see what happens.

So it is all not a myth -- you are being argumentative - and I am never argumentative ( What never -- no never, I am never, never .............)

1. Use of polyethylene needs to be carefully controlled -- certainly in the amateur wine/beer making area. I have no experience of commercial grade containers.

2. Being argumentative was not my intention. But I do feel that you are talking rubbish ( spelling -- "cr*p" in the American vernacular). Not real rubbish but unqualified rubbish!

Saki is extremely uninteresting to me ( but obviously not to others) and lacks the nuances of grape wines and indeed many of my country wines -- so I have no intention of trying to make it -- it is on a par to making an insipid low alcohol bland "nothing" ( that will upset lots of folk -- Sorry). I suspect that if you made a bland saki in your "gingerified" container that someone might just detect it!

Finally, all my glass carboys of 1 gal (imp) and 24 litre , after I have cleaned and sanitised them, have no after odour! Is there a difference between glass and polyethylene perhaps?

By the way I have some 50 bulk storage glass containers of 24 litres and 1 gallon (imp).--- ( it used to be 80) and 10 x 28 litre (+) polyethylene fermenters.

Don't try and talk down to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Trevor, aka "pinky" wrote concerning Brian's discussion of debunking, myths, Saki and the need for separate equipment for brewing beer and fermenting wine~

Hold on there, seems like Brian lives in Canada. Would you fellows have your nice discussion and leave us Colonists out of it. Out here on the Great Plains we still work with what you left us...pints, quarts, ounces and pounds and we always keep our Kerosene out in the shed and our alcohol equipment in the cellar :o).

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

Hi Bill But I said American not US and, forgive me if I am wrong, but isn't Canada in North America :-)

And your pints aren't the same as ours in UK!

North America refers to the continent, but no one is ever called a North American. Mexican, Canadian, American, etc. I doubt a Canadian would wish to be called an American! Ken (Corn fed, country bred American)

Now that this is completely off topic I know a Canadian border guard who would disagree.

I made the mistake of answering 'American' to the nationality question at the border 15 years ago; he ripped my head off while giving me a geography lesson. I answer more carefully now, 'United States'...

Now on the other hand I'm reasonably sure if I would have called _him_ an American he would have had to find a good reason to shoot me then and there... Power corrupts...

:o)

Joe

Well, feel free to pop into rec.crafts.brewing and argue your opinion with them. There, my statement has been qualified.

Sorry for not qualifying my statement. I thought I was dealing with someone intelligent enough not to take it to ridiculous extremes. Obviously I meant equipment that does not retain liquid, which clearly wooden barrels do. You would not want to use a barrel for both beer and wine.

We were discussing transference of flavours between beer and wine. How is this a compelling argument for your position? Well, I guess when you are losing the debate...

There, there, calm down. I understand, you're all just a little on edge over there these days. Trying times indeed. But really, Charles and Camilla have the right to be happy just like any of us, so just accept that they are married and move on. ;-)

Brian

C'mon now, Brian. Chill out. Trevor has long been one of the best contributors to this NG, so please cut him some slack. I'd really hate to see him leave again, and so would many others who have benefited from his experience.

He and I share a bit of crotchety old-fartness, but guess what? You'll be joining us soon enough (if you live so long).

Peace and out.

Tom S