Prep for planting new wine grapes

Paul,

Obviously the trench would be great BUT I couldn't afford the backhoe so here is what I did. I dig a hole about 1-1/2 ft across and about the lenth of a spade deep. THen I use a post hole digger to dig a "column" down past the "hardpan". Now depending on your soil you may be able to forego the posthole digger. What I would do is dig a hole with the post hole digger an see what the soil is like down to at least 3 feet. If the digging is easy ( make a couple holes ) then just dig the planting holes and plant them. Otherwise, use the posthole digger. BTW, when you plant , plant the vines at the same depth as they were in the nursery NO DEEPER. It's better to keep them high than low. I form a hill at the bottom of the hole so the roots spread over the hill. Obviously I refill the hole and the post hole column to form this hill before I plant. DO NOT add any compost, just cover the roots with the dirt you took out. I also put in about 1/2 the dirt over the roots and fill the hole with water. Then I add the rest of the dirt and add more water. THe first year I would mulch with something. THe young vines need alot of water ( 1 in per week) contrary to what you sometimes read. The water also makes it easier for the vines to get the nutrients out of the soil.You shouldn't need any fertilizer the first year if you water them but if you want "sprinkle" a little

19-19-19 around them, that should be fine. Then just watch them grow. What kind of vines are you getting? If your soil is very acidic you might want to stick with hybrids. Where do you live? I've learned the hard ( best) way that you need to match the vines to the climate for the minimum amount of heartbreak.

Bob

Bob - thanks for the information. It helps.

On your question of what I'm planting.... My farm is in central PA, atop a small mountain (big hill) overlooking the Susquehanna River. The farm benefits from some temperature moderation from the river. I haven't selected the specific varieties, but hope to do about 8 different varieties of 10 vines each. Six will probably be FrenchAmerican, with a bias toward those suitable for red wine. I'd like to try a couple vinifera varieties (cab, merlot) as I think the proximity to the river will give me some help in creating a good environment for the vin's.

Thanks, Paul

You may wish to reconsider planting 8 different varieties.

Keep in mind that each variety will have different periods of bud break, flowering, fruit set, maturity and tolerances to different fungicides. With these differences comes differences in the spray schedule and possible type of fungicide than can be used. For example, some varieties may be sensitive to sulphur and some varieties may be sensitive to copper. You may be creating a lot of work for yourself. I think the people at Penn State could help narrow down the list.

I would suggest that you first decide which wines you prefer by visiting local wineries in your area and then see if your particular site is suitable for that variety.

Experimentation is fine but a lot of the experimentation has already been done by state agriculture extensions. I am not trying to rain on your parade but instead speak from experience and trying to pass along my lessons learned.

I planted my backyard vineyard not really knowing what information was available and not taking advantage of their services immediately. It has been a learning experience and I have learned a lot - the hard way - but I am closing in on 60 years of age and I don't have that long to learn things the hard way. I am now considering converting some of my vines by grafting.

Paul - thanks for the advice. While I like the idea of trying many different varieties, you make a good argument regarding the varying schedules for each variety. First thing Monday morning, I'm calling my extension agent to get some of their thoughts.

Thanks again, Paul

In addition to what Paul said which is right on there are just a few more things I can add from my experiences. 1) Only you know your area so hopefully you have been a gardener and know around what time the FIRST and LAST frosts are. If you don't ask your neighbors that garden. They should know. There are certain varieties that need longer growing seasons esp. vinifera and you want to make sure the vines can ripen the fruit to get the best wine possible. The other BIG factor is winter temps. I've learned anyone can grow vines in the summer it's the WINTER that basically cuts you down to size. If you want to go through the work of "burying" the vines then forget what I just said but from what you have already said I'm not sure you want to go through that. Another thing. If you do grow some vinifera and you don't live in a wine growing area you might think about growing vinifera on it's own roots especially if you have a sandy-ish soil. I'm doing it and it certainly is alot easier training suckers than replacing vines. BTW, vinifera requires an extensive spray program and stay away from the vines that are suceptible to bunch rot.

Bob

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote in message news:...

Where do you live Bob? Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

If you have a duripan or hardpan you need to give the roots a chance to get through it. I rented the biggest ditch witch trencher I could rent and dug

Bill,

I live 40 miles north of NYC. I grow mostly chamboucin but am branching out to vinifera,tramminette and I'm going to try and get some Landot 4511,Lacrescent, Sabrevois and St croix next spring. My season is REALISTICALLY from May 8 (bud break) to Oct 3 (first frost). It's actually too short for chambourcin so I'm going to slowly phase out 3/4 of the chambourcin. I planted it when I was a young , ignorant viticulturalist. Last 2 winters have been tough. There is a BIG difference in the cold hardiness of chambourcin compared to vinifera. There are a couple of observations I'd like to share with you I've trained some trunks this year that for the most part were not in the greatest sun position ,mainly shaded, and the color on them is extraordinary. Beautiful reddish tan, Why? Other shoots that were positioned in the sun are still green???? I'm questioning the common thought on this. I'm questioning whether the position in the sun is the only reason for the color/winterhardiness of the shoots. I guess I'll know more in April ;). I have sandy soil so I have mulched ALL my vines with wood chips and have used NO fertilizer and they look fantastic. No signs of any deficencies which they had shown in the past. The difference is quite remarkable. Even though I have sandy soil I grow grass in the middles and just mulch mow which seems to have increased the water holding capacity of the ground plus adds compost. I know you grow chamboucin also but do you have any input into the other varieties I've mentioned?

TIA

Bob

"William Frazier" wrote in message news:...

bob wrote >

"> I live 40 miles north of NYC. I grow mostly chamboucin but am

Bob - Check out Double A Vineyards

They sell Landot, Lacrescent and St. Croix. They are located in Fredonia, NY so they should be familiar with grapes that will do well in your area. Also, look at the grapes offered in the Geneva Breeding Program. I bought some NY73 from AA four years ago and these grapes do really well here in the KC area.

" My season is REALISTICALLY from May 8 (bud break) to Oct 3 (first frost).

A lot Chambourcin is grown in the KC area. Perhaps if you cluster thin more your Chambourcin would ripen faster. It's a great grape and I would hate to see you dig them up to be replaced by the Swensen hybrids mentioned above.

"Last 2 winters have been tough. There is a BIG difference in the cold hardiness of chambourcin compared to vinifera." Not quite sure what you mean here...are the Chambourcin more hardy that vinifera you've planted. I planted Cab. Franc, Cab. Sauvignon and Chardonnay over the last three years. I figured what the heck, might as well try. There are several growers with these vinifera here in KC. So far the vines have lived thru. the winters. I protect the grafts with straw and there is some winter kill in the cains. This was the first year I let the Cab. Franc have grapes. The ripening was very uneven. I picked 281 lbs off

25 vines on September 27th. I threw away 1/3 of the harvest because they were very unripe. The remainder were at 19.5brix, 3.64pH and 0.67%TA. I like the low acid because everything else I grow tends to have high acid (NY73 excepted).

"There are a couple of observations I'd like to share with

I don't have a clue. Probably a maturity thing with the green cains.

" I know you grow chamboucin also but do you have any input

I used to grow Leon Millot (long story on why I dug them up) and I understand they are very cold hard. They ripen very early and can be made into a nice wine with some practice. Also, my oldest grape is Baco Noir. I'm not suggesting you plant it but it's cold hardy and has never had a problem with winters here. I make a pretty good wine out of Baco but you have to take steps to get the acid down and you can't let the pH rise above

3.5 or the wine goes brown. All-in-all I would keep the Chambourcin, crop thin severely to let them ripen and make great red wine.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

Just a thought - have you or anyone else following this thread, ever tried to graft a vinifera onto a Chambourcin vine? This would let you use an established trunk and root system and not have to take out established vines. I tried this year but was not successful. Of course, this was my first experience with grafting. I may try again in the spring. The funny thing is the Chambourcin that I headed off never did take the graft BUT it put out amazing growth on its own and is now a very healthy looking vine.

Have you seen this?

I have grafted a lot of plants, never grapes, but grafting is quite simple, don't be afraid to try it all day long.

Paul, It's a good idea BUT I don't think it would work because the vinifera part is still susceptible to cold. It'll get crown gall eventually and die.

Bob