Question on "Topping off"

Maybe neither.

Consider buying a 5 gallon carboy and obtaining a 1/2 gallon glass jug. If this is not sufficient, try 1.5 liter bottles. One can never have too much in the way of various size glassware and bungs to fit. You will re-use them time and time again so it is a one time investment.

In case you do not want to do the above, I suggest you top up with commercial wine.

primary

Newbie here but if you follow the postings you get headspace = bad news for whites. I only leave enough head space so there is half an inch at the top when the stirring rod is all the way in. It helps to say if its a red or white in a post. I like using the right size carboy and save my money by getting bottles at the recycling center. I really like the taste of my wine better than the stuff at the store so I personnaly would not add any to my wine. I only make kit wines.

Are you sure that you're doing a secondary MLF type fermentation. I've always been told that kit wines CANNOT undergo an MLF, due to some sort of stabilization that they do.

Lee

I wasn't going to post a reply but you are being misadvised by others here.

If you are doing a KIT WINE then the "secondary fermentation" to which you refer is in fact just the continuing of the original fermentation after your have racked off the fermenting must from the initial deposits and fermentation is NOT YET Completed. This is normally done when the SG falls to about 1.010

It is important that you do no top up at this stage. The space above the fermenting must will still be filled with CO2 from the ferment and your fermentation lock will still be bubbling gently.

There is no problem with contamination by oxygen at this stage.

Now -- when fermentation is completed and NO gas is passing through the fermentation lock then you will need to rack off into a new carboy ( read your instructions carefully) and carry out certain procedures which depend on the type of wine you are making and indeed the type of kit

Above all read the instructions

You will have to go through a process of degassing, fining, and stabilisation. You should be topping up after degassing usually, since it is at that stage that your new wine loses its protective CO" blanket. I personally use a wine of my own making to top up to within about 3 cms of the bung. You can certainly use a commercially bought in wine to do the same. And I still use a fermentation lock to close the carboy.

It isn't difficult but......................

Read the instructions carefully

If it is at all a kit produced by a recognised maker then you will have all the necessary instructions to make all the right steps.

Above all don't panic. Despite what you will read in all sort of place the making of wine is not difficult and the wine itself is amazingly tolerant and robust during its early processes.

Good luck

That makes it sound OK to leave headspace if you're making red wines. It is _not_ any more OK to leave headspace over red wines than white. Reds are susceptible to oxidation and microbial spoilage too. The only difference is that the effects of oxidation are more _visible_ in white wines.

Tom S

Trevor is exactly correct, by the way kits work, primary fermentation is done in contact with air. It is short, maybe 3 to 7 days and allows the yeast to reproduce rapidly. When fermentation slows you move it to secondary where air is excluded. The yeast have already reproduced to an acceptable level and you do not want air in contact with your wine. But you still want the head space. This insures that your wine will not foam out the air lock. Bad for the wine and bad for your marriage. Believe me! As the wine continues to ferment it releases copious amounts of CO2. This will purge the head space and remove the air that is in it so you do not have to worry about it. But during this phase, leave your wine alone. Do not check SG every day as some suggest as every time you do you let new air in. If the air lock continues to bubble, it is doing fine so leave it alone. If it stops bubbling, then check it to see if it is finished. When you rack out of secondary to bulk store the wine, then you do not want that big head space. It would be a good idea to get some smaller carboys by then. A 5, some 1's, maybe some 1/2's. This will let you rack into the proper space without topping up with store bought wine (Ugggg, contamination) or water.

Ray

With beginners I always support the "KISS" principle. Too much detailed advice will just put people off. And wine making isn't that difficult -- just can be a bit time consuming --can't it? There is often just too much advice -- not necessarily incorrect -- but just too much information. When I consider how I made my first wines, I often wonder how they managed to turn out but, at that long ago time and with a very immature perceptions, my memory says they were good! But of course everyone's first successful "brew" is the best ever! I am sure that Chris' efforts will be similarly fantastic for him!

BTW I know ( take a sample of comment of this on this NG -- or anywhere!) that "bulk storage" "bulk aging" Bottle aging" is a tremondously important part of the winemaking process. I have found that (my opinion, since it takes the longest time) it is the, proverbially, most important part of the Vintners process!

Absolutely true, Trevor. More wine is lost during aging than at any other time. Air locks failing or going dry, improper adjustments, oxidation for what ever reason, or just aged to long (for some wines).

You are also correct about the wines made 30+ years ago. I swear, according to what people tell you now days, they would not have made at all. But they did! I fermented wines in the back room of my unairconditioned mobile home here in south Texas where the temperature could go over 110 degrees during the day. We all know that would kill the yeast, but they still fermented out. I thought they were good. My apple was certainly better than Boons Farm.

Ray

but, Tom...... I thot the tannins extracted from the skin and seeds in red wine made them more tolerant of small amounts of oxygen.

I did an experimental controlled oxygen aging of a little of this year's first racking of my zin (little over 6 oz wine in 8 oz glass, covered with AL foil, tightly... put in fridge for 3 months). And damned if it isn't a nice wine. Rich, full body, no oxidized taste... even the sediment tasted very good.

Can't imagine why I'd even want to consider putting it on oak and mask any of the delicious varietal flavor. (of course, it won't store well)... Zin Nouveau anyone? LOL

Gene

Tom S wrote:

I agree.

I leave ONLY enough head space in red and whites to prevent the must from foaming out of the airlock. If it does - no big thing, I just clean out the airlock and if necessary remove a slight amount of wine and refit the cleaned airlock. In summary, my fermentation containers are as full as possible and with absolutely no more air space than what is absolutely necessary.

When I made 2 similar types of Red in 5 gallon batches from Zinfandel and Barberra grapes, I took the pressed grape skins from both primary fermentations, added a couple of gallons of sugar and water with a SG of

1.095, and made a couple of gallons of a second run wine. I use this wine to add to the carboys of the good stuff, the remainder I will use for cooking. Great for Spaghetti Sauce, Stroganoff, and even soups! The second run stuff resembles the first run stuff, but the taste is somewhat watered down.

Although my method of "topping off" might be irrelevant in your case, what you might want to do is add enough grape juice concentrate corrected to 1.095 SG to top off your container and get fermentation going again for a while. The other alternative is to find a 5 gallon Carboy,which are readily available from Wal-Mart for about 6 bucks each, or you can buy bottled water in the carboys for about 12 or 13 bucks, drink or use the water, and keep the carboy rather than returning it for deposit. Plastic ones are okay, but I am looking out for some old-fashioned glass ones to replace them with.

The operative word is "small". Although red wines are more tolerant of oxygen exposure, they are every bit as susceptible to microbial spoilage as whites. The spoilage organisms need oxygen to propagate, so the idea of topping up is to cut off their air supply. Sulfite reacts with oxygen dissolved in the wine to cut off the air supply from that direction, but you really need to tend to both maintaining minimal headspace _and_ an adequate sulfite level.

Tom S

I discourage others from doing this. In my opinion, I think one should top up with wine of equal or better quality.

I have made second run wine myself but I use it to blend with mediocre wine which can't be hurt that much. I have recently blended some high pH wine with some low pH second run wine and the result is something I can drink as an every day wine.

Using second run wine to top off the first would probably be better than pouring some "wine in a box" type wine to top off the carboys. Who knows what is in that stuff! Second run wine varies in quality depending how hard you press the lees, how long you let primary fermentation go, etc. I used a mesh laundry bag to squeeze the juice out, which did a pretty efficient job, so the results of my second run were pretty disappointing in terms of flavor and color, compared to what I have done in the past, when I only pressed the skins lightly. I brought my grapes this year, and tried to make the most of them. I have on order about 25 each of grafted Seyval and Chambourcin vines, so I will have plenty of raw material to work with in a couple of years if my vineyard prospers.

Agree. That is why I said to top up with - of equal to or better than - quality of what you are topping up.

Almost everything except grapes :)

Have you looked at those boxes on the shelf recently? I don't remember why I did, but almost none of them are wine. OK, they have some in them, but they're primarily other fermented gook with some wine mixed in in an attempt to approximate the taste of wine. Out of more than a dozen on the shelf, I think two were wine rather than "beverage with wine added" or some such.

It's even worse with wine coolers. Putting aside the questions of why people would want to cut their wine like that, and why they're too lazy to mix in the soda themselves, there's no wine left in them--they're "fermented barley beverages". That's right: bleached beer, as in (*shudder*) Zima.

hawk, horrified

Hey I like ZIMA! MD2020 as well..

:-} As far as I have heard you can use water or Juice.I just added some water mixed with sweetener to mine..

Bill