Re: Baco Noir 2003

Well, the sheet that came with the grapes has 14.2 as the number under the acid column... I was thinking it was 14.2ppt? However, 1.42 makes more sense.

Many growers/winemakers express TA in grams per liter.

clyde

Charles H wrote "I picked up my baco noir on saturday, about 322 liters worth of

was a bad year down in

Charles - I've grown and made wine out of Baco for about 5 years. High acid is always the problem with the Baco grown here in the KC area. I think this is normal for Baco regardless of where they are grown. I agree with Clyde that the 14.2 acid value is 14.2 grams acid per 1000 ml of juice. Same as

1.42% TA. Anyway, this is pretty high acid. I once discussed this with the people at Presque Isle and they said their Baco is over 2%TA some years.

"I suppose acid reduction is in order... I have malo bacteria, I plan on

If it were me, before I added anything to lower TA, I would take a sample of the juice and freeze it overnight. Thaw and test again for TA. This will give you a good idea of what the finished TA will be after fermentation and cold conditioning. Depending on how much acid ppt from solution during the freeze-thaw you can decide how to proceed.

I've used potassium bicarbonate to lower Baco TA in the past. I did this to new wine after all fermentation was complete. In the 1998 Baco wine the TA fell from 1.06%TA to 0.62%TA with K bicarb. Please use caution when adding K bicarb. It may just be my taster but I believe it results in wine with a salty taste. This taste dissipates with time.

If the TA does not fall significantly during the freeze-thaw you will need to reduce acid chemically. I noticed a good idea the other day on this forum. I forget who suggested it but the idea is to totally remove all acid from a fraction of the wine with calcium carbonate. Then remix the two fractions together which will result in the desired %TA for all of the wine. Check out so-called double salt acid reduction technique.

One final thing...you have a lot of wine to work with. It would be interesting to split the wine into two sub-batches. Ferment one batch with no manipulations to adjust TA. For the other batch use either potassium bicarb. or the double salt method (preferred since the TA is so high) to adjust TA. Use ML culture on both and give each a hard cold treatment this winter. See how they turn out.

Good luck with your Baco. Report back with some results...I'm always seeking information about how to make good Baco wine.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas

of juice. Same as 1.42% TA.

I've been going crazy (short trip that it is) trying to figure out why 14.2 grams per liter (1000 ml) is 1.42% TA, or more precisely what the percentage actually represents. I finally did so, and thought I would share it with the group, in case someone else is still scratching their head and tearing their hair out.

The "% TA" value designates "grams per milliliter (expressed as a percentage)".

So, grams per liter (expressed as a fraction) divided by 1000 = grams per milliliter (expressed as a fraction), and grams per milliliter (expressed as a fraction) x 100 = grams per milliliter (expressed as a percentage)!

Since 1/1000 x 100 = 1/10, we can convert grams per liter to % TA by dividing by 10.

I hope this wasn't obvious to everyone but me. :(

Thank you very much for your advice.

I think I will try the double-salt method on half the wine and see how that works out. Due to the rapidly approaching winter here, I think cold stabilization won't be too much of a hassle, the temperature outside is hovering around 0c right now.

Negodki wrote "I've been going crazy (short trip that it is) trying to figure out why 14.2

You're making this harder than necessary. 14.2 grams/1000 ml is the same as

1.42 grams/100 ml. Just move the decimal over one space. The %TA value is just what it says....the percent of titratable acid. So, 1.42 grams/100 ml it the same as 1.42%TA.

For the Baco example 1.42%TA is very high acid. Quite a few posters on r.c.w. like their red wines in the 0.60 to 0.65%TA range. I agree, this amount of acid makes very nice tasting red wine. For the Baco example you would have to reduce the acid by at least half so it's probably not possible to use potassium bicarbonate alone to do the trick. I use ion exchange when I need to take out this amount of acid but not everyone has access to this technique in their cellar. Several have posted, in the past, that "double-salt" technique can accomplish the same acid reduction. I've never tried it myself but I know members of my wine club that have done so. I understand that the double-salt technique requires special attention to intense or rapid mixing when the process takes place. Seems like a combination of "double-salt" acid reduction followed by malo-lactic fermentation and hard cold conditioning will result in a pretty good Baco wine.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas

Even if this were true, don't sweat it. We all have our moments of grandeur and our moments of gliches. That's one of the powers of a group like this to air out our gliches.

I watched part of a movie last night (kT was watching it), "As Good as it Gets", when the line was thrown at the Jack Nicholson character, "Your best quality is your willingness to humiliate yourself" or something to that effect. Hit real close to home for me, and explains a lot about being a winery owner!

clyde

I was wondering how to account for all the grape skins in calculating the amount of sugar to add.

Since this varies by the size of the grape, and the number of stems and leaves, and such, trial and error (and experience) is the only reliable method.

Peter Brehm (sp?) Vineyards used to publish a table showing the average percentage for each of the varietals they sell, but I was unable to find it on the Internet this crush season. If anyone has a copy or a current link, please post it.

I measure the must volume, and then reduce it by 15% for large grapes (e.g. "table" grapes) and 18% for smaller grapes (e.g. Sangiovese, Merlot, Cabernet). 20% would have been a better figure for the cabernet this year, but I didn't find out until the pressing. And last year, 18% _was_ the correct figure.

Another, more accurate, method might be to weigh the empty container, then weigh the full one, then compute the liquid volume based on its specific gravity. But I have no intention of going to such trouble. Wine is very forgiving, and a 5-10% difference in volumetric based additions is not going to mean the end of the world.

Besides, a typical set of measuring-spoons or scales have as great an error.

I should add that I destem 100%. If you only destem to 80 or 90 %, the percentage of solids will be somewhat higher.

With apples (which I ferment on the skins for about 3 weeks), I just go by the height of the must in the container (without subtracting a percentage for solids). I "likes me cider" strong, acidic, and tannic, so I'd rather go "too high" than too low.

Thanks that seems to make sense... my baco grapes certainly aren't as large as table grapes. I think I shall go about figuring it out this evening.

Perhaps Bill Frazier can give you a more accurate percentage for Baco's. What are they like? I've never seen or tasted any before.

"Charles H" wrote

What's a 2-mesh screen? Is that like 2" poultry netting (chicken wire)?

Got in on the last of this thread but wanted to add 2 cents a bit.

Went over to Bill's and got some of his Baco Noir couple years back. He allowed me to taste some of his, showed me his numbers and all. As stated they where a bit high. Now the difference came when I got them home. I could not press them, all my containers where full. So I had no choice but to freeze them all. After I think it was 6 months thereabout I pressed them partially frozen. Once thawed took my readings. E-mailed Bill the findings Where VERY different than his. AM unsure but think he told me that batch of his was not as good as expected. However mine has and still is getting wonderful reviews.

Since that time on some things that I have picked that are high acid whether fruit or grape I have frozen them 1st, 2 examples this year was my Gooseberries and Traminette's little high, froze 1/2 and pressed 1/2 at picking. Frozen bunch had much better readings after thawed and are at this stage better in taste and color.

Not a Chemist or Science major, un-sure of all the why's yet, just own experience... More experiments req'd....

Ben & L>

Negodki wrote "What's a 2-mesh screen? Is that like 2" poultry netting (chicken wire)?"

Two holes per linear inch. I use stainless steel screen.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas

Aha! (They call that 1/2" mesh around here). Where do you obtain stainless steel screen? I searched the Internet, and the only place I could find was in Asia. The prices were good, but the shipping was a bit steep. :)

Negodki wrote "Where do you obtain stainless

McNichols Co.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas

Opps, meant Leon's not Baco. Thanks Bill for some reason I am always confusing this.......