Running out ofoption... Can really use some help??

Are

You _definitely_ don't want to use that in your - or for that matter ANY - wine! Running ML in the presence of sorbate will make your wine smell like geraniums. >8^P

Assuming the primary is a carboy under airlock, leave it in there for now. I'd recommend that you sulfite it to ~10 ppm free SO2 for now. When you add the carbonate to raise the pH some of that will blow off with the CO2 that's formed in the process (careful it doesn't foam over on you!), and what remains won't be enough to inhibit ML.

BTW, be sure you don't raise the pH too high before inducing ML, because ML will also raise the pH. I'd probably aim to adjust with carbonate to ~

3.1-3.2 or so. It would be a good idea to do a bench trial on a portion of the batch (add known weight of carbonate to a known volume of wine, degas, chill out the bitartrate and measure the pH) to get a feel for how much carbonate you'll need for the whole lot.

Tom S

Thanks again Tom...

Here's the status... The wine is in a carboy under airlock and the free SO2 is about ~15 ppm (it was already at that level...so I didn't need to add any more sulphite.)

I ordered some Potassium Bicarbonate from a shop William F. recommended, so I will wait until it arrives. Once it arrives...I will added it based on your recommendations, then...(here comes a question)...Run the MLF or cold stabilize first?

Cheers,

Shawn

Shawn - Do you have a pH meter? If so use it when you treat with potassium bicarbonate. I've treated finished wine and juice before fermentation. Here's how I do it.

When you add K bicarbonate to wine or juice a lot of carbon dioxide will be released. So do this in a container that has lots of head space and is open to the air. A pail or tank is ideal. Presque Isle, and other sources for winemaking information, says 3.4grams of K bicarbonate will lower the %TA by

0.1% (1gram/liter). I calculate the theoretical amount of K bicarbonate I want to add based on this formula and the actual acid content. Then I add the K bicarbonate slowly with lots of mixing to be sure it dissolves. I have the pH probe in the wine or juice I'm treating and watch pH as the chemical is added. Granted, the pH reading will not be completely accurate because of the presence of CO2 in the wine but it does give me some measure of confidence that I don't let pH get too high. I may add all of the K bicarbonate that I've measured or I may stop the addition if pH gets near my cut-off value.

The wine or juice should be at room temperature for this treatment. If the wine is very cold you take a chance on not having all of the K bicarbonate react quickly with acid. You will be left with salty tasting juice or wine. This eventually goes away but it's better to have the reaction go to completion as soon as possible. After the CO2 release seems complete transfer the wine to a full carboy and move to cold storage to get maximum benefit from the treatment. If you are treating juice go ahead and make wine as usual.

Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas USA

Hmm, good question. I'd say degas and cold stabilize the sample and then measure the pH. If that's satisfactory, treat the entire lot and degas but _don't_ cold stabilize yet. Wait until ML is complete, the wine is aged/oaked to taste, fine with bentonite and whatever and _then_ cold stabilize the entire lot.

Tom S

I have worked with whites with acids that high and you have good advice from Tom and Bill already.

FWIW when I work with potassium bicarbonate (I can't seem to find potassium carbonate in wine making shops out here in the east either) it seems to be more effective at swinging pH and lowering acid initially at those higher acid levels. In other words, calculate what you want to add and put in only half or less initially, then check that pH like Bill said. I might go for 7 gram per gallon or less initially. I would not add more than 14 grams per gallon no matter what, if it seem like you will need to go there, taste samples carefully first.

My 'guesstimate' value for the cold stabilizing drop is around 1 gram per liter.

Joe

Tom S wrote:

Thanks guys... I think I am prepared for the next steps....

I am a bit confused on the differences are between using Pot. Bicarbonate and Carbonate. Are they essentially the same? Cheers,

Shawn

Joe, where do you get your Pot. Bicarbonate?

Potassium carbonate is K2CO3 (Mol. wt. 138).

Potassium bicarbonate is KHCO3 (Mol wt. 100).

For your purposes they are functionally equivalent in effect, just slightly different in potency.

Tom S

Shawn, Presque Isle, piwine.com has it, you can get around 4 ounces or a pound. I'm sure someone local to you sould have it. Joe

I forgot to mention something important: _DON'T_ use _sodium_ bicarbonate to reduce acidity in wine! You would end up with a salty tasting wine, because you can't chill the excess sodium out. Only potassium salts work properly in this application.

Tom S