'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any Country Wines

Pick for maturity, not acidity. There are no minimums or maximums for acidity, as there are for alcohol, volatile acidity, and SO2. Even alcohol only enters into regulation when you are trying to produce a wine with an "appellation contrôllée" type designation, otherwise acidity levels come under the heading of style. Robert Parker likes high alcohol, low acid wines for sipping (they also show better in competition, where they are served without food). Wines that accompany food (the main course) will usually have around .6 to .7g/100ml calculated as tartaric.

A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and 3.4 for a fruit wine with sugar added.

Mm thanks for that. I followed the info in Kellers page which I think (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. I adjusted to that higher end. I guess what I am going to have to do is bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. I just don't trust my ability to repeatedly taste the same wine at different acidities over and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste also.

Kind regards, Jim

Jim,

Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the the total amount. You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.

I'm not sure how close it is. It is noticeably too sour. Adjusting with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at! It's a minefield. I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid front now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I have seen.

Thanks for the advice again!

Jim

Yes, as per Keller reipes for blackberry wines and elderberry wines I used a little acid blend. The batch I made previously without blackberries seemed pretty much spot on to me - I guess the blackberries were more acidic than Keller's recipe imagined. I titrated and added acid accordingly (to just under the higher end of the acid scale for red country wines) noting that the addition was just slightly over the amount recipes for similar wines suggested. Perhaps the blackberries hadn't released all their acidic goodness by that point.

Jim

In the future, do acid trials with a 20% solution (20g tartaric brought to a volume of 100ml), and use .10ml of 20% sol./50ml of wine to add the equivalent of .05g/100ml to your wine.

Have you had your wine with food, or is this to be a sippin' wine?

How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).

Have you titrated for total acidity, pH?

The acid was added to the must, not the finished wine. As I said, I titrated at the must stage and adjusted to under the maximum for country reds. The final adjustment was only 6 1/4 tsp of acid blend (in the usual ratio as per Keller) in total for a 5 uk gallon (6 us gallon) batch, minimal addition really.

I will be doing another titration before deciding whether I should ajust or enjoy as is, it's just *a little sour* nothing I can't live with, but something I won't if needs be :) Thanks for all your comments.

Jim

Jim, I was told long ago by a very good winemaker that PH is the only thing you should take into consideration before fermenting. I've been doing it that way ever since and never had a problem. TA is done after the ferment.

Wow, that's news to me!!! Maybe I should invest in a ph meter again then... I haven't had one of those since my days playing with hydroponics...

I am guessing I am not faaaaaaar off with the small amount of acid added, but I shall titrate and check again. The last thing I want to do is bottle it and regret not adjusting (if totally necessary) for the rest of its shelf life.

Cheers, Jim

Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge off your wine.

As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right? The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was malic, you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's easier, if the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3) trials, to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.

I think the ratio I mixed the acid blend to was 3:2:1 Tartaric:Malic:Citric acid.

No it isn't bottled yet, I just post-oaked the oldest as I discovered the younger elderberries that I had oaked were far superior to the older unoaked batch. I have been waiting for a chance to do another TA titration to see 'technically' what the acid situation is and to decide if I am going to attempt to deacidify the wine slightly. Once that is done I will perform a final pre-bottle rack and bottle it. The wine has already been racked productively 4 times since I first added the yeast and any further racking will have to be topped up with water or bought wine as I have no surplus around.

It is better with food definitely, I totally agree that an oily food partners well with acidity - I had a wine of similar acidity yesterday and it worked well, though I am trying to craft this wine to be my staple drinking wine, so I think a drop of a little edge would be good across the whole batch. I shall leave the second wine from this batch a little higher acid as it is lighter, suits the liveliness and will probably be used more often with food than its heavier first press brothers.

Thanks for all the input both, it is appreciated!

Jim

(snip)

Remember that the sourness of wine (crispness, whatever) is directly proportional to the pH of the wine. The other components of the wine will buffer the total acidity (TA), resulting in wines with the same TA tasting flatter or crisper.

The malic could be reduced to lactic acid by leuconostoc oenos (enococcus) bacteria but they require a nitrogen source (lees) and I would worry about the citric getting converted to actetic acid.

Bottom line, if you can drink it, live with it.

Bon appétit,

Cheers, but why not measure the pH by meter and mouth and reduce excess with calcium carbonate?

Jim

You're right, of course. It doesn't matter what the pH is, IF the wine pleases you. I've never adjusted a wine with calcium carbonate, so I don't know how satisfying, or not, the results may be. Try .1g, .2g, .3g of CaCO3 in three different 4 oz. glasses of wine. When you get close, step up or down by .05g. It shouldn't take more than

If you want to try the secondary fermentation approach, there is no problem with generating acetic from citric, only in primary fermentation.

Bonne chance.

Halb betrunken ist heraus geworfnet geld.

Thanks for the reply. Yeah that's the plan. My only fear is maintaining an objective palette across the tests. I shall look up a suitable palette cleaner for in between, any recommendations? Cheese, crackers, plain water, milk?

Jim

I just read a discussion on this. Apple slices are the best way to "reset" the palette between wines. Cheese/milk are the worst due to the fat content leaving a layer on your tongue.

Stephen

The old adage is to take apples to buy wine and, take cheese to sell wine. Apples contrast and, cheese compliments. Taste with apples.