Thinning of vertical shoots

"I have had a good example this year of the role of leaf area in ripening fruit."

"I removed some lower leaves just before netting a few days ago to help ripening."

I think you had the right idea in the first comment. Pulling leaves doesn't help ripening. In fact, it will delay it. The vine takes time to readjust it's physiology to compensate for the lost leaves. In an environment like yours you need all the leaves you can get. People who grow grapes in California or an area with more sunshine and heat have much more room to hack up the vines, you don't.

Michael,

Glad you decided to mulch. You will be happy with the results. Plant roots can't get at any nutrients unless the soil is moist. I probably gained 2 brix the first year I mulched. The vines are just healthier and produce better. If you think about it, grapes are the only plant on the planet where the growers think mulch is some sort of poisionous addition. It's pretty hilarious. Anyway, a plant is a plant and if it makes my tomatoes and peaches sweeter than it's only logical it would make my grapes sweeter, and it does. My best advice is: never stop observing.

Here is an excellent article on the subject. Most of this research supports doublesb's previous comments but also note the authors comments about situations of extreme vigor.

Paul

Thanks for those comments.

The article you gave,Paul, is extremely interesting,and seems to deal exactly with my problems.I will study the article in more detail,but the comments on timing of removal of laterals seem to suggest that it is best to remove (or prune to three leaves) most of these during the early flowering and fruit set period,but leave them after veraison into the ripening phase.I think this is something like my practice.I find that I have to remove the laterals in June,otherwise the canopy becomes a completely tangled mess (especially this year after using compost)-but this is the period of flowering and fruitset,so presumably fine.Later from mid August,the vigour of the canopy slows down,and more laterals can be left.However I still find myself hedging the top of the canopy,which creates new growth rapidly-if I do not do this the canopy can become unstable in quite light winds we have in September/October.

I was also very interested in the comment from doubi...,that using compost can add 2 Brix to the juice.I have certainly noted how much healthier my vines are this year-and more vigorous!! I have use garden compost plus some added fish blood and bone.Is it sensible to add compost each year,and in your experience,when is the best time to add it?

Thanks again,Michael

I seriously doubt than adding compost will add 2 brix. I would like to see doubi, or whatever his name actually is, point us to a literature cite.

This flies in the face of research that indicates that when you already have vigorous growth, you do not further your problem. I think most research would indicate that increased vegetative growth has a negative effect on grape berry maturity.

In my opinion and experience, adding brix is done by increasing growing degree days, hours of sunlight or cropping your vines so that you do not over crop.

Hi again, Does the ripening process depend on hours of sunlight or degree-days.This year my vines are cropping earlier than normal.There is also a very heavy crop,probably due to the excellent very warm June we had here.Since June the weather here has been mediocre during the day with average or slightly below average temperatures.However the overnight temperatures have been very consistently in the 14-17C minimum range ,which is well above average for England.So I am postulating that it is the number of degree-days (above 10C I think) over a 24 hr period which is ripening my grapes early.There certainly has been a shortage of sunshine this year. On the compost question,I thought that it was always useful to add compost around the vine (maybe without any added fertiliser annually),to avoid the vines roots drying out during a very dry spell,which would encourage powdery mildew.My vines are on a s-facing slope on dry limestone soil,so always have a tendency to dry out. Several books on vineyard management do encourage the use of compost,but maybe my vines are vigorous enough. Best regards Michael

Micheal,

Always trust your eyes and keep observing. Paul, without any proof, is saying that what I have observed and what you have have observed couldn't be true. It sounds like in your case, mulching has helped tremendously. There are many reasons for mulch and the main reason is that a healthy vine is a good vine. It's as simple as that.

Paul,

Why don't you mulch a couple vines next year and get back to us with the results?

Actually,

Mulching NOW is a great time as the vines suck up nutrients into their roots in October. Remember, don't mulch over dry ground. Wait until it rains heavily then use the mulch to seal it in.

The very best thing for Michael to do is an experiment where he mulches a row or rows and leaves the others unmulched and see if he gets the "2 brix" increase on the mulched rows that you claim. The thing(s) that increase brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days. Perhaps the only thing Michael can do is cut down trees or other obstacles obstructing sunlight.

You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them of your 2 brix increase revelation. I am sure you could start a new trend in grape growing.

You never did answer my question that I asked in the past; where are you growing your grapes and what are you growing?

Paul at least uses his real name.

I am saying that I have no doubt that mulching will increase vigor. Increased vigor in an already vigorous situation will NOT improve grape quality. In fact, it will do just the opposite. Do you like your wine to smell and taste like vegetables? Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial growers constantly strive to DECREASE vigor.

The French say that the best wine is made from the struggling vine. Hmmm, something to think about there, doublesb.

You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes do no like wet feet. Grape vine roots can go VERY deep; deeper than almost all other plants. You can not compare the root system of other shallow rooted plants to grape vines. Promoting a shallow root system is not a good thing to do for grape vines. Also consider where Vitis Vinifera originated - NOT in parts of the world that had vigorous growth. Also, it is most successfully grown - in semi arid areas.

" The thing(s) that increase brix are more sunlight and more growing degree days."

That is not true. If what you say is true than growing a vine in the sahara desert would yield the best grapes.

"You should send your mulching "proof" to viticulturists and tell them of

Most viticulturists are like you, they claim that grape vines grow better with no water. Maybe that is why the Fench only have "vintage years" every 20 years or so.

"Here in the Mid Atlantic, commercial

And I'm sure they also fertilize. If they put their mouths were their money was they wouldn't feritlize. BTW, fertilizer is USELESS if there is no water in the soil for the roots to soak it up which blows away your theory about vines growing well in "arid" regions. While grapes roots do go deep a good percentage of them are near the surface.

"You will also find many references in the literature that state grapes do no

They don't like wet feet. What they like is well drained soil which by design dries out FAST. That is why mulching over optimum soil is the RIGHT thing to do.

Why mulch works.

Mulch shouldn't be put down over dry soil because it will cause the soil stay dry unless there is a heavy rain. This is why putting mulch over wet soil is the right thing to do. The mulch seals in the moisture already in the soil and regulates more moisture by soaking up heavy rain until the amount of rain oversaturates the mulch. Then the moisiture will start seeping in to the soil. On light rains the mulch will absorb the moisture and actually evaporate it when it starts raining. Meanwhile the mositure underneath the mulch is preserved so the roots can get to the nutrients. Since vines need very litle nutirents most mulched soils provide the nutrients for a healthy vine without provinding too much moisture or nutrients for over vigor. Mulch also provides an environment where the vine uses what it needs when it needs it not when it rains or when fertilizer is put down. Mulch also breaks down and provides a natural way for the vines to be healthy and allow the vines to progress physiologically on the vines time table. So as you can see mulching vines are healthy for the vines along with possibly restraining vigor when it rains hard.

,> " The thing(s) that increase

Michael,

BTW, a healthy vine is more resistant to fungus than a vine that has been "made to "struggle". Another reason to mulch and may be a reason why you have little powdery mildew problems this year.

I see, you STILL refuse to state your name and where you live and grow grapes and which varieties you grow.

Ever see an oasis in the desert? Plants there do very well with just a little water.

The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water - sort of like fine tuning an IV for a Human in the hospital. Drip irrigation is usually cut off or reduced to promote better ripening near harvest time. In your theory, you would give them all the water they wanted. The result would be extremely long canes with poor fruit.

Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as there is ample sun and water. Grapes are genetically coded to be climbers and reach for the sun. When water is reduced, the grape vine will stop sending energy to the shoot growth and instead put its energy into maturing the seeds and fruit to make it more likely birds and other animals will eat them, spread their seeds and perpetuate the species. This is the only thing nature cares about - perpetuating the species.

Tell it to the French.

Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine. I suppose you disagree with this also.

Publish. and have your work peer reviewed. Most research viticulturists would welcome your documented research.

Paul

NO!! most do not fertilize.

They don't.

The proof is well established. I think you live in California, right? What is the climate in most of the vineyards there? What is the climate in Washington State where grapes are grown. What is the climate in Argentina and Chile where grapes are grown. Vitis Vinifera originated in Eurasia near the Caspian and Black Sea - hardly a tropical paradise.

Yep, if you water them, you will have a good amount of them near the surface.

Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently in different rows and compare.

"Michael can easily do an experiment and grow his vineyard differently in different rows and compare"

He did, and he seems happy with mulch. Your the one who doesn't accept his observations.

"The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is regulated by drip irrigation or nature provides just enough water "

If they mulched they wouldn't need irrigation.

"Genetically grapes could care less about optimum ripening as long as there is ample sun and water. "

So they do need water?

"Excessive vigor promotes poor quality wine.  I suppose you disagree with this also."

I wrote that mulch actually refrains vigor ( due to it absorbing the water) while increasing the health of the vine..

"Publish. and have your work peer reviewed."

It's already been done. Grapes are plants. They benefit from mulching.

I am talking about a trial between rows in the same year!!! Not one year compared to another. Also, the crop is not yet in for this year. A vigorous vine does not mean the fruit is good.

Try drinking wine instead of growing and smoking wacky weed your reasoning may be better. :-)

Yes, but a LOT less than other fruits. Ever been to Grand Junction, Colorado, Moab Utah? Quite a desert environment there and they grow good fruit - WITHOUT MULCHING.

As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and contributed to by viticulturists.

STILL no answer as to where you live and what you are growing. Afraid of this question? I am also not impressed that you hide behind an alias.

Paul

Paul,

The more I read this statement, the more I laugh.

""The premier growing areas are those that are semi arid and water is regulated by drip irrigation "

So much for natural "terroir".

BTW, the french are great winemakers but are average winegrowers.

"As I thought, you are afraid to publish in any magazine read by and contributed to by viticulturists."

Viticuluralists are off in orbit when it comes to farming. I've had enough experience with them to know they would never make it if they had to grow something that was actually hard to grow. They end up killing more vines than they cultivate. The main reason for it is that they all think that what works in Maryland will work in England and will pound the table trying to convince you. Your insistence that Michael couldn't possibly be seeing positive effects from mulch is par for the course.