Tying in of vertical shoots

Do you have just one catch wire or two, such that one is on each side of the posts?

The thing that works very well for me and other growers is to use "C" clips to hold the parallel wires together. Just position your shoot or group of shoots, pull the two wires close together and bracket them with the "C" clips. The "C" clips will hold the wires close together and help secure the shoots in place. There will still be some slippage but not too much and not near as much as with just tying.

Below is a link for purchasing here in the US.http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/showsearchresults.asp?pageStyle=H&resultCnt&keyword=netting&submit=Go+>>

They can be used for years.

It is sort of hard to explain without pictures. I hope you can picture this.

HTH. Paul

Thanks for that.I use two rows of double wires,and these clips seem to be what I need.I assume they are easy to get off at the end of the season.Can you use them with the early shoots which are thinner ,and expand when the shoot diameter increases. I will have to see if I can get these clips in England as the carriage from the US to England always seems high, Michael

US.http://www.orchardvalleysupply.com/ovsstore/pc/showsearchresults.asp?...>>

Yes, you can take them off fairly easily. It depends on the gauge of the wire you use. If you are using something like 11 gauge wire, they are more difficult. On 14 gauge wire they are easy to remove. It helps if you just twist the slotted end of the clip when you remove them. They will go back into normal shape. Of course, you could just leave some of them on the wires over winter.

Yes, you can use them on the early shoots on the lower wire. In really difficult areas, I use them on both sets of wires to help keep the shoots vertical.

The clips are also good to use if you use bird netting. You do not need to net the entire vine. Just clip the net on the wire above the fruit zone and clip the net together under the fruit zone. You can use about a three or four feet width on each side of the row. The birds will no go down through the canopy but they will come up from the bottom so you have to make very sure the netting is secure all along the bottom and around the trunks.

What varieties are you growing?

Paul

Michael,

I use zip ties also known as electrical ties. They work great and you can pull them very tight. I d> I grow a few vines in England on the Double Guyot Method.The vines are

I think we may have had this converstion before.

Electrical ties that would hold the shoot tight enough against the wire also probably hold them tight enough to girdle the shoot as it grows and prevent nutrients from reaching the new growth.

I do not know where you are growing your grapes, but here in the East, EVERYONE I know of, commercial growers and amateurs alike DO prune off laterials especially those that cause the canopy to be too dense.

As I mentioned before in another response last year, laterals do produce fruit and this fruit takes energy away from the main shoot fruit. It is also fruit that will never ripen fully and therefore should not be used in the harvest.

Perhaps you live in an area that is very dry and you can regulate growth by the amount of drip irrigation but here in the East and I assume England, vigor is a major problem.

Shoot thinning is another method used. If one has shoots from secondary or tertiary buds, then these can be removed, especially if they are not needed for a spur for next year.

Paul

Michael wrote:

"I get bud burst in early May,and by end of June the vertical shoots are past the top wire at 5'.I prune above this wire and remove the side shoots each week."

That is why using zip ties is exactly what he should use. Use the zip ties on the top wire tied tight and use them loose on the lower ones. As far as the laterals are concerned, yes, I disagree with you and there are plenty of other people who do too, Ever leave the laterals on one vine and see if that vines brix is higher? I betcha it is.

I am confused. You say you hedge above the top wire and remove the side shoots that result from this hedging and leave the other laterals?

I am always willing to learn. Do you have a literature cites so support your views?

I am not sure whether your comment/question is to me,but I will clarify.In England which is a cool climate we get very robust growth from the vertical shoots arising from the two horizontal Guyot arms.These shoots reach 5' (my top wire) by about end May,and I then top the shoots,which then encourages lateral side shoots (as in tomato growing).I take as many of these off as possible by pruning them to the second leaf.I do this to stop the hedge becoming too tangled and dense,so that my spraying (mainly wettable sulphur to prevent powdery mildew) is efficient.Later I remove some of the lower leaves near the grape bunches to aid ripening. Is this a sensible procedure or am I losing Brix as someone suggested Michael

I think your are doing things right.

doublesb, or whatever his or her real name is, advocates retaining laterals. In my opinion, this can lead to a canopy that is unmanageable in climates that promote vigorous growth. It also promotes a "second crop" which will never ripen but will take energy away from clusters on primary shoots. I was asking him (doublesp) for literature cites.

What are your growing? I live in Central Maryland and also have problems with overly vigorous vines.

Paul

I'm not advocating retaining laterals due to hedginging above the 5' wire. Cut them off. I'm advocating leaving the natural ones that the vine forms to help it ripen the fruit. I've NEVER see clusters on these. While I have read that some vines do develop clusters on these laterals ( natural ones) , I have never experienced them. If it is a phenomonon that only happens every once in a while I wouldn't sweat it.

While climate certainly can have something to do with how much growth you see, a substantial factor is going to be the variety of grape that you grow. Some varieties are much more vigorous than others and substantial set of a second crop is likely primarily due to the variety you are growing. Are you by chance growing Seyval Blanc? It is known for over cropping from an extended bloom period. You are better off dropping unwanted clusters (and shoots early in the season) than whacking off a shoot that is providing energy to your fruit. You can do some canopy management without cutting the energy (sugar) supply to your clusters.

Stephen

I experience it in every variety that I grow so from my experience it is not a rare phenonomon. If you do not experience bud break until May, you are growing in a cool environment and one in which wine is not normally grown.

I have never heard of vines naturally putting forth laterals to ripen fruit. Could you please provide a reference.

Winkler in his classic "General Viticulture" talks about the 2nd and 3rd crops from laterals so it seems the vine is trying to procduce more seeds for birds or whatever animal to spread the the seeds and propagate the species as opposed to "Ripening of the fruit". Winkler's expertise was in table grapes and table grapes do not have to have the maturity of wine grapes to be of sale value. Nature could care less about our desire for fruit ripe enough for quality wine. It DOES care about supplying seeds to propagate the species.

Where are you growing your fruit? What varieties do you grow?

For what it is worth. Unless the laterals are causing congestion in the canopy, I leave them. I do remove the clusters from the laterals that I leave and I do remove laterals in a crowded canopy to promote air flow and avoid shading the fruit.

I think it is all a matter of what you are growing and WHERE you are growing. The general statement to maintain laterals in an overly vigorous situation is, in my opinion, not good advice.

Here are a couple of references that contain some information about hedging (toward the bottom of the articles). In summary: do it with caution.

viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/info/pdf/prunecanopy.pdf

Here's one article on this topic >

and I'm trying to find another that I have somewhere that ran an experiment and found that more than 4 leaves on a lateral actually started to be less effective in fruit development, my guess is probably because of young leaves being a drain. If I find it I'll post it later.

Dick

shbailey wrote:

This isn't the one I'm looking for but I found this also:>

Dick

Dick Heckman wrote:

thank you very much for the links and information.

Paul

Hi Paul, Thanks for your support.Englands viticulture has only developed over the last few years,and several growers have won top prizes for white wine and particularly sparkling wine,comparable with good champagne.Certainly climate change is helping to ripen the fruit well,but typical ripeness for England is in the 17-19 Brix range.These wines seem to keep a fruity character due to lack of excessive heat- our summer temperatures tend to be between 20-30C,and very occasionally up to 35C. I only grow vines to produce wine for my own consumption (I also make hard cider).My vines are situated near Hereford on a south facing limestone soil site.It tends to dry out quickly,and I sometimes have problems with powdery mildew.A very successful vineyard (Three Choirs) is about 8 miles away,so I suspect my climate is good for the vines I grow.I have researched the varieties that are successful in Northen Europe,and have chosen: Whites- Schonburger,Bacchus Reds -Regent,Rondo

The reds are fairly recent German hybrids and are producing some excellent wines. The vigour and tendency to produce sideshoots does vary,but if I do not remove the laterals through the summer,I would end up with an impossible tangle. Regards,Michael

Michael,

How about doing a little experiment? Leave the laterals on one vine and see if it makes any difference. With brix readings of 17 you have nothing to lose. Don't sweat a little tangle. The vines can handle it.