Thinning of vertical shoots and mulching

Since I was the originator of the previous long discussion,I thought that I would start again. Thanks to you all for the comments and advice,which is mostly contradictory but very interesting.Just a few more comments that struck me in the discussion.

1)Wood chip mulch(unrotted) would certainly rob nitrogen from the top soil layers.This is a well known fact to gardeners,who cannot get anything growing on wood chip added soil,but can as soon as nitrochalk is added;the effect is sometimes almost immediate. 2)My soil is dry limestone on a S-facing slope,and can suffer from very long periods with little rain.The subsoil is stony clay which holds moisture.I also have a hard cider orchard,and it takes about 10 years or more for the apple tree roots to start moving into the lower soil.My grapes are grown in an area with typically 25" rain annually,and also in a microclimate where the rain bypasses us down the valley.Surprisingly I am able to grow good potatoes,onions,tomatoes on this soil,but the top few inches often becomes very dry.Hence I thought that the mulch (garden compost) would keep the upper soil a little moister. 3)The quote from Cox,which I have,that mulching encourages some late growth,and may hinder ripening is interesting. 4)My vines this year are very healthy,and possibly with a darker green leaf this year.This maybe an indication of too much nitrogen . I did add some small amount of general fertiliser to the mulch,which I also do not usually do. 5) The bottom line is that my vines and grapes look extremely healthy this year,with a great crop on.They are ripening slowly and withou any sign of disease moving in yet. Another thing I did this year is to put several wasp jars(containing beer) around the vines-I must have killed a couple of thousand wasps over a few weeks.I am sure that in previous years wasps begin to attack the grapes in early August-they nibble a grape or two which rot,and this spreads to the rest of the bunch.A similar thing happens regularly with plums. 6)I have good site for grapes,but every year is not good as our temperatures can be rather low sometimes.But this year is excellent,particularly in June when I had great flower and fruitset.Since then the vines have been flourishing.

So,I am not sure what to do next year.I have done so many different things,I am not sure which has been the most important and in particular whether to mulch or not.I will possibly give a final sulphur spray after harvest as Paul suggests.Since most of the vine is cut away in winter pruning-in my case in November-isnt better to spray then when there is not much wood to spray,but then it may not be as effective.

Thanks again,and I would certainly welcome more discussion.I am learning a lot,despite becoming a little confused.

Best regards Michael

Reply to
michael
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Total nonsense.

Total ignorance.

Total nonsense.

Finally something that makes sense.

Another thing I did this year is to put

Total nonsense. Bees don't damage grapes.

Reply to
doublesb

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This link is pro wood chip for landscaping, not agricultural

Reply to
BobF

Total nonsense. Bees can get into grapes that are cracked or diseased for whatever reason and spread the disease.

Reply to
Paul E. Lehmann

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All of this nonsense from doublesp who also recommended using Rubbermaid trash containers for fermenters which is a SERIOUS NO NO!!!

This is the same doublesp who refuses to tell us where he grows his grapes and which varieties he grows.

It seems as if he just might have a credibility problem.

Reply to
Paul E. Lehmann

I'm afraid I have to agree. I'd have to hold suspect the opinion of anyone who doesn't know the difference between SO2 and H2S (re: post of

29 Aug).

Marshall

Reply to
Marshall Jose

We've been talking about the health of a plant. There is no difference. Are you saying that landscaping plants have different requirements for their health than agricultural plants? What is I choose to use apple trees to landscape my yard? Do I mulch if I use them for landscaping and not mulch if I want to eat the apples?

Reply to
doublesb

Post the link. I think you misread or misunderstood my post.

Reply to
doublesb

As much as it may pain me to do so, yes, I agree - on this one point, it is not the bee that causes the primary problem :-)

Reply to
Paul E. Lehmann

Read the material you linked to. It explains the different needs for different types of plants.

Reply to
BobF

Do they still have nitrogen requirements? I don't grow grapes yet, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one night ... :-)

Seriously, I've read many scientific (agricultural) sources over the years and used that knowledge gardening. The fact that the micros that break down wood-based mulches consume nitrogen is well known and broadly accepted.

It may well be that grapes vines root deeply enough and have a low enough need for nitrogen that it doesn't matter to them in practice - in the short term.

I suspect that continued use of wood-based mulch over a number of years will deplete the available nitrogen if not supplemented accordingly.

To the point, that they aren't annuals might not matter. It just changes the cause/effect time line.

This is how I understand things so far. Hopefully the discussion will continue such that I have a true understanding before spring gets here.

'Here' being south central Missouri, USA.

Reply to
BobF

I don't see why you think using wood chip mulch is "Organic" growing. If one wanted to get a good start with their grapes AND they had nutrient requirements that their soil did not meet, then I might suggest mature compost but not wood chip mulch.

Reply to
Paul E. Lehmann

How can you suggest anything when you have no experience at it? I have years of evidence that proves wood chips are the deal and a doctor in Washington who will back up my observations.

Reply to
doublesb

I emailed Lon Rombough, the author of "The Grape Grower - A Guide to Organic Viticulture" about the subject of mulch. Here is his reply:

"The type of mulch makes a difference. Wood chips are a lot different than chipped tree prunings, such as tree services produce. Chipped pruning material is a mix of chip/chunk sizes and contains leaf matter and ramial wood (small twigs). Such material has enough nitrogen to keep it from taking N from the soil, but enough large material that it decomposes slowly when used as mulch. This is a lot different than using straight wood chips, which DO take N from the soil and can cake on the soil. Want proof? Pile up chipped prunings and they will heat like compost and break down to a dark humus-like material in a matter of weeks. Wood chips need lots of nitrogen and moisture added to compost anywhere near that way. In the vineyard such chipped prunings will last two to three years as mulch. They provide the humic acids that soil flora needs and promote more even levels of moisture and nutrients. Granted, results will vary with different soils, and it's not that easy to get enough chipped tree prunings, but results are favorable in most conditions. All I can say is to try it on an area of the vineyard and see. Anything that helps the life of the soil will aid the vines in the long run.

-Lon Rombough

NEW grape pruning video:

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View a short, low resolution clip here:
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Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, at
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Winner of the Garden Writers Association "Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003."

and in response to a follow up question about mulch compounding issues with excessive vigor:

"That depends some on the soil. Generally vines will grow better with mulch because moisture stays more constant in the soil. Without mulch moisture fluctuates more, which will stress and slow vines more than constant or gradually decreasing moisture.

-Lon"

In "The Grape Grower", Lon references a Cornell study where the best results for both moisture retention and grape yield/sugar was from planting rye in the fall, which was killed by Roundup in the spring and left on the ground as a mulch.

Reply to
shbailey

AGAIN. Where do you live? What varieties do you grow? How many vines do you have?

Reply to
Paul E. Lehmann

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