You are giving advice that could kill someone.
A knowledgeable user (and that includes those who have routinely handled, say, cassava over generations and learned how) will deal with it. A naive user may or may not; advising them that it is not a problem is unwise, and dangerous.
bob
Tried a little larger experiment. 1/2lb grain (but I forgot to crush it...DOH!) 1.5 oz tapioca and a quart of water. Held it at 152-155F for an hour and got complete conversion by iodine test. I boiled it for an hour, cooled the wort and pitched yeast. The wort sample that I left in my hydrometer jar is clearing at the top and I expect this will make a perfectly clear ale, though I'm chilling the sample now to see what effect that has on clarity. The gravity was only 1.023 which suggests I got very little out of the grain (understandable since I forgot to crush it). I think this quart-size beer experiment has convinced me that I need to make a tapioca saison this weekend.
Warren Place
cyanide
If one makes a post like "you can preserve foods by canning at home, the risk of botulism can be minimalized with proper techniques such as a boiling water bath, etc.", I suppose that too is advice that could kill someone? *shrug*
I guess that's good, because if you are stupid enough *not* to look up the basic techniques of throughly cooking / soaking / sun-drying / fermenting / etc. cassava, and/or knowing what types of food can be canned with a water bath and what needs pressure cooker canning... you deserve that painful / deadly lesson. Darwinism works, right?
Methinks the multiple amount of newsgroups, anyways, are causing many people to go way off topic. The original poster did not mention malted sorghum at all, however because this was posted in a beer-brewing newsgroup along with a chemistry newsgroup and a cooking newsgroup, it somewhat strayed towards gluten-free brewing substances. The main point was that the cyanide in malted sorghum is insignificant especially after doing all you do with malted sorghum for brewing purposes. Cyanide is also insignificant in properly prepared cassava (as plenty of tapioca pudding lovers can attest). Raw sorghum shoots and raw cassava tubers, of course, can poison you. No duh.
As far as the original request, I'll be damned why you actually want to make glucose syrup via enzyme action, except maybe for your own chemistry amusement. For consumption, the original poster just should by a huge jug of corn syrup for cheap, since corn syrup is nearly 100% glucose syrup to begin with.
Your point is well taken. It is a judgment call. Proper techniques for canning are commonly available in our society. Proper techniques for dealing with cyanide in plants not commonly handled at home are not so common. And I must say that I read the post I replied to more as saying "don't worry about it" than "be sure you know how".
...
Agreed. Or just buy some dextrose and dissolve it.
bob
The original request was about how to make glucose syrup as the person had food intollerances/allergies. These are to corn and fructose.
Making glucose syrup by either enzymes or acid hydrolsis will leave protein fragments which a person who is very sensitive to those protein fragments will still react to.
Then there is the problem of testing to see the level of protein fragments left behind. As the production of glucose syrup will simplify the proteins, current commercialy available tests tend to give false negatives, while the human immune system which can still recognise these protein fragments and react.
An example is glucose derived from wheat starch, this tests (down to
5ppm) as gluten free, but a significant pr> On 20 May 2005 06:43:27 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: [snip]
Sounds like this person is an imaginative nutter.
yes, I have many food intolerances (celiac and that causes other food intolerances); including corn. So that's why I'm asking about how to make glucose syrup from, say, tapioca starch or arrowroot starch.
I read on the net that acid hydrolysis of starch isn't done much any more because the enzyme hydrolysis is more complete - results in more glucose.
I'm asking in beer brewing newsgroups because added amylases are used to hydrolyse starch sometimes in brewing. The local brewing company sells amylase enzyme. I don't know what exact situation you would use it in.
For example - how would you keep a solution at 150 F at home, which is the right temperature for the enzymes to work? I figured home brewers might do such things?
Somebody said something about hydrolysis producing fructose and fructans as well. I'm pretty sure it doesn't, from what I've read, starch is a
*glucose* polymer - and when you hydrolyse starch you get glucose, maltose, dextrins.Laura
Also, does anybody know where to get the bacterial & fungal alpha and beta amylase enzymes that are used to make glucose out of starch? I can get amylase that's extracted from pancreas but I'd rather use the bacterial and fungal enzymes, they are less likely to cause allergy problems.
Laura
Of course it can be done, its really a matter of how to do it with simple equipment, and how difficult the process is.
The other question is - do you need glucose syrup, would sucrose from sugar cane or sugar beet do?
My understanding is the reverse to what you say, but I have not looked into it very deeply.
The thing here is that you need a mixture of enzmymes, each enzyme does a quite specific job (breaking a certain bond), so to break all the starch done to monosaccharides you will need a mixture of at least three enzymes.
The other thing is that each enzyme has a temperature at which it works best, so holding it at just one temperature is probably not the best way to do it.
No, I said that mashing (as in brewing) will produce a mixture of sugars. Also starch you can buy is not pure starch, it contains starch, cell walls, gums, and some protein. Complete hydrolysis will produce mainly glucose, but also some other sugars, amino acids, and protein fragments. Which is why some coeliacs do not tolerate glucose syrup derived from wheat starch because some protein fragments are still present.
And of course why you want to avoid glucose syrup made from corn.
Robert
Alpha amylase is the one of the two "critical" enzymes for brewing. Naturally present in grain, this enzyme at certain temperatures cuts down the large protein and startch molecules present. These simpler forms can be digested by the yeast easier. (The other enzyme is beta amylase.)
In brewing, you typically do a "mash" that hits both enzyme's naturally active temperature at least part of the time. A typical all-grain homebrewer might heat the mash (usually via infusions of hot water) to around 154F -- a temperature in which both enzymes are moderately active -- and let it soak for an hour. More thorough yields are obtained by resting at both the beta and the alpha amyl
The only time I've heard alpha amylase being used in homebrewing is when you overshoot your mash temperature, deactivating the alpha amylase enzyme. You really need both alpha and beta enzymes working together, either through the compromise temperature above or via multi-stage temperature rests.
Just FYI: I Googled and found this book:
Further comments: Maybe some of the more scientific folks can comment on amyloglucosidase aka Beano. This enzyme has been used to make "light beer", it's very good supposedly at breaking down complex carbs, and has a better active temperature range (40C or below).
I'm gluten intolerant, so I can't use the cereal grain enzymes. A lot of saccharification enzymes are from bacteria and fungus which would probably be OK.
yup - from cassava (tapioca) or arrowroot starch. I have a pretty intense corn allergy by the way - 1/16 of a grain of corn made me severely ill for several days, and 2 tbsp. of fructose - which has about the same amount of corn protein - also made me quite sick. Fructose is made from corn syrup, so I'm quite sure that corn syrup is not OK.
That's interesting! I was wondering about Beano :) Easy to get it :) I have the impression that amylglucosidase is used together with other amylases, it's the final step after other amylases have been at the starch.
Laura
What's the source of your understanding? I read something about the acid hydrolysis being the older process - not used much anymore because it's less complete; also not very clean results, high saltash content. Maybe this was about hydrolysis of corn starch. Corn starch has a high protein content, I think the tapioca starch is purer - so maybe the acid method would work OK on tapioca starch. Where does one get sulfuric acid and lime (that's what CaCO3 is?) that one would be confident in eating the end products of the reaction?
Laura
The alpha and beta amylases work at similar temperatures. 150 F is a compromise.
Chemists are just as concerned with purity as the rest of us. They don't want contaminants in their reactions any more than you want them in your food. All chemical reagents come with an assay of the residual contaminants as well as a material safety sheet.
Why compromise? We have to compromise when brewing because the enzymes come from the grain itself. But if you're ADDING enzymes, I don't see why you don't just rest at the alpha amylase temperature and add the enzymes, then let it cool off down to beta temperatures and add some more enzymes.
Scott
Is it easy to convert sucrose/fructose into glucose?
Laura
A sucrose is a disaccharide molecule consisting of a fructose and a glucose bonded together.
Scott
Sorry, you were right. I found the article and re-read it. Have a look at the following link which explain the process, the enzymes used and at what temperatures they are used.
In brewing this compromise is used to get a specific result in terms of the ratio fermentable and unfermentable sugars. You want all glucose, so the compromise is not what you want.
Also the optimal temperature of the enzyme depends on where the enzymes comes from, which grain or organism. Some of the bacterial alpha-amylase will tolerate 100C.
To find the chemicals and enzymes, you will need to find enzyme suppliers and chemical suppliers in your country. Also you will want quantities very much smaller than they are used to supply.
Robert
Cooks split the sucrose molecule all the time to make "invert sugar." Basically heat sugar water with some acid (lemon juice). That breaks the bond. Don't know if it's possible to then easily get the fructose to glucose.
Also, glucose is the same as dextrose (which is what corn sugar is).
Lemon juice is not stron enough. Invert sugar is done with enzymes or sulfuric acid. Not in US where corn syrup is subsidized so it is cheaper than than sucrose.
Anyway, this discussion is getting realy boring, lots of dopes here. Lets discuss making hexanitromannitol from starch instead.
Don't know what cook would have enzymes or sulfuric acid in the kitchen, but from:
yes, but as far as boring goes, it reminds me of the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. as far as dull goes almost anything can create beer, if it is processed properly. even the opium poppy contains sugar which will ferment. i doubt is so lethally inclined to poison their friends. cassava is not available in canada some places on this planet, this is their only chance for food.
your experiments will likely lead to death. feeding that to a canuck in canada will give you lifetime imprisonment, with no chance of parole. OOPS is not good enough.
go to kill me if ya want newsgroups
death is a handy subject til ya have to lift up a cold lifeless best buddy. because someday you will have to do it. and you just won't joke about it ever again.
tell the prison warden ya want the view of the golf course.
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