Wine price groups

Michael Nielsen wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

Michael, I remember saying that. The fact is that any wine priced above

Regulars at alt.food.wine are not a faithful representation of the wine market.

To understand my statement, we need to take into account that more than

So, we, lovers of fine wine, are different. And I did not say better.

There is a big difference if you live in a wine producing country or not. In Spain, France, Germany, Portugal or Italy, you can drink very well below 15 euro. Top labels? no!, but good wine? that's for sure.

Now, if you live in Denmark, where wine is not produced, it is considered a luxury product and taxed severely because of the luxury component and the alcohol on top, maybe you are doubling the price.

You can get very nice Rioja and Ribera del Duero below 15 euro in Spain.

This week we had a beautiful "Suertes del Marqu?s 7 Fuentes 2012" from Lanzarote Island which is priced 12 euro in Spain.

We also had one bottle of Jean-Marc Burgaud Morgon Grand Cras 2011 which is worth about 15 euro and very nice indeed.

Descendientes de J. Palacios "P?talos del Bierzo" 2012 is a heck of a wine for as little as 15 euro. Pure Menc?a from a great vintage.

Obviously, going up a bit up on price, broadens the scope. Recent drinks such as Alain Brumont's Montus 2004 (18,90 euro) was very nice last sunday, if a bit thin.

I do not think price correlates with quality once you pass beyond

I like to splurge a bit more money for some bottles every now and then. Today we had a bottle of Ca del Bosco Franciacorta Brut 2009 which was good but not worth 40 euro in my opinion.

Well, I've lived near napa and my wife is italian, so we go there a lot, an d Ive bought wine right from slovenian wineries, and even there I had to go for the 10E series to consider the juice to be wine :)

I consider us more unlucky that we are so hard to please :)

My sister is so lucky that she loves a cheap fresh and fruity Joven Tinto, while I prefer a earthy dusty grand reserva.

Germany? good wine at any price? hehe.

Im not sure I can remember a good wine below 15E (in italy) from italy. And those that are around that price, costs the same in denmark.

Sometimes it is double, sometimes triple, sometimes it is the same price. I guess those are the best deals in denmark.

Those I know are actually around 15E. Lower than that is not so good. Below that I'd rather go for Navarra or valdepenas. When I feel for a cheap rioj a I go for Bodegas Franco-Españolas Rioja Bordón Reserva, which is 15E. But sometimes on sale for 8E. But maybe that is the true price in spain? i n that case I see your "ranges". But the other examples you mention are aro und hte same price in DK, except one of them:

Yeah I buy mostly in the 15-40E range.

Michael,

Well, maybe Napa is an exception!!!

Which is an interesting statement of yours, because "Joven Tinto" is typically fruity and round while "dusty Gran Reserva" is a wine that is usually thinner, which is typically your problem.

Good producers from the Mosel, Rheinhessen, Pfalz, Rheingau make entry level wines that are delicious and well made, and all sell in the 15 euro mark.

Selbach Oster Zeltinger Sonnenuhr or Schlossberg Kabinett is around 15 euro and is a world class wine that you can age for 25 years if you want. Wine does not get any better than that.

Now, if you need to drink Egon M?ller Scharzhofberger Auslese Goldkapsel... that's another thing priced at 5000 euro per bottle, but this is not about the intrinsic quality of the wine anymore.

There are plenty of great wines below 15 euro in Italy:

Braida Barbera Montebruna Elio Altare Barbera d'Alba Montevertine Pian del Ciampolo Felsina Chianti Berardenga Tenuta di Fessina Etna Rosso "Erse" and so on...

Interestingly, I buy them online in Germany because it is so difficult to find a really good italian online shop.

We lived in SF for a few years and found cali wine very expensive in general. But we compared it to France of course...

There are fine wines made in a fresh style, as I know Santiago you enjoy them also.

But because we enjoy such wines doesn't make us easier to please, of course! :)

In France I'd extend that to

Slovenia was the 10E reference.

Californian wine I tend to go over 20$ (close to the 15E mark.)

Take Beringer, they have many series in my wine store, and the founder esta te is around my threshold for acceptable and its 15E, and its just "ok", no t particularly "Good". 10E series is unacceptable. Then theres Gnarly Head Zin thats 15E and quite ok. Then there's the 10E woodbridge cab that is a g ood "put in the sauce" wine, and have a glass with dinner, but not somethin g to enjoy after dinner.

And I like my wine to be the "enjoy without food" type.

I found that its very individual how people perceive a taste. Some people t hink barolo is the most bold and powerful wine there is. to me its usually quite thin. To some Barbera d'alba is too bitter. I consider it sweet witho ut any hint of bitterness whatsoever.

The riojas I like are thinner, but they are still very invasive on the pala te. Some producers are too watery for my taste. Some producers make a good reserva, others I have to get GR to like it, others dont even make a good G R. Campillo is good from crianza and up. Faustino is good only in GR. Lagun illa is not good at all . Baron de ley is on the threshold with GR. Tondoni a is good from Crianza and up.

I was recently at a Mosel tasting, with prices from 10E-40E. None of them w as good. Sugarwater and the most expensive ones had also a hint of horsepee .

Dont know any of those. But barbera d alba is on my "ok as cheap wine" list . My favourite is GD Vajra Barbera d`Alba.

Examples from my "threshold list" is:

Rosso di montalcino campo ai sassi Frescobaldi Nipozzano Chianti Rufina Riserva Col del Mondo Montepulciano d'Abruzzo Kerrias Lamberti Amarone Masi Brolo di Campofiorin Oro

For example, the little brother Masi Camporiofin is below my threshold.

Well, I think e.g. Beringers Quantum is better than a similar priced Bordea ux. And the 120E reserve cabs are comparable to the 800E Chat. Latour.

I normally say that Im not a fan of french wine, because most of it is only good with food. I focus on sip-ability of a wine, as I end up have only a few sips with food and then I sit and enjoy the wine after the food like a digestive. So alpha and omega to me is that the wine can stand on its own. And thats where a lot of wine becomes watery.

We discussed barberesco some months ago - one of those flavourless wines to me. I tried one recently that was actually pretty good with the food. But wihtout food it lost flavour.

This one:

Its steak type wines I like as sipping wines.

Mostly whites, and I dont really drink white, except the occasional oaky ch ardonnay, or tuscany Domino (if I could find Tondonia bianco I might drink more whites). I tried their reds, too, and thats really the archetype of wi ne I think is just grape-juice (not as in citrus grapefruit haha). Trying t o explain my taste I like wines where the fruit juice as "transcended", or "broken down", or "dissolved". If any of those words make any sense.

Yes Im often baffled at wine searcher prices. wines that cost 50-60E here, in producing countries, are stated to cost 20$ in USA sometimes.

Maybe "thin" is the wrong word to describe the lacking quality I seek?

Or maybe I judge thinness relative to the style ? So I expect a Rioja and a pinot noir to be thinner than a napa cab, so I will like it anyway, if it has the correct grandeur to make up for the lesser body, but if not I will consider it too thin, even if a too thin napa cab will be bolder than a goo d rioja.

wine.com classify wines I like as "Earthy and Spicy" and "Big and Bold". Th e types I tend not to like as under "light and fruity" and "smooth and subt le". That's a lot of different types of words on a seemingly 1D thinness sc ale from "light" to "bold".

I guess it is hard to do dimension reduction by projecting multi-dimensiona l wine notes onto a 1D measure of how thin it is :)