Good Beer Guide

I can't remember exactly how it was described - it was a few years ago

- but it was one for which I got a letter in the post inviting me.

London

I can only report what I have seen - it is not cobblers, other I would have not posted it (honest!). And how many CAMRA members vote - either to their local branch or using the forms in What's Brewing? This is an annual debate, but it still applies that the GBG is one of the best guides - guide being the operative word, as that is all it (and the others) ever could be.

I was not referring to any branch with which I have any sort of connection these days - indeed I am no longer involved in that side of things as I feel it is does not sit comfortably with running a brewery. But I do know a number of pubs that don't get in because they are not visited, and at least one pub where this is because the landlord is disliked (the feeling I think is mutual, to be fair). I accept that many areas have more good pubs than room to list them, and other areas that have had to lower standards for the opposite reason (and map padding as I mentioned). I cannot comment on every area for every edition of the guide, only personal experience - and what I hear within the trade. I won't mention names etc. as I feel it would betray any confidence / trust. If the guide was wholly fair, there would a national scoring system, and every pub surveyed would get in on the basis of how it scored, not how much room there was (or was not) available. I should also add that we do not deal with pubs in the East Midlands (with 2 exceptions) so it is an area of which I know little - although the 2-3 pubs I do visit as a drinker all seem to have a tale to tell - either in the past or because (as you state) there are more good pubs than space (which is hardly fair, after all).

As I said in a previous reply, the GBG still remains one of (if not the) best beer/pub guides.

I do think at one time there were situations like you describe but they are fast disappearing. The selection process has become much more open and accountable over recent years.

Certainly in my area the annual meeting where those who turn up vote on their own nominations has been long gone. There is an ongoing quality survey where to reach the level for possible inclusion a pub must a) reach a set level on quality and b) be visited on a number of different dates by different people. Submissions can be made through a form supplied to members, or through the website. members are reminded monthly by a regular E-mailing. In addition monthly evening buses are held which specifically target pubs which have been brought to the branch's notice as potential entries. Yes, there still is a meeting but it is not the huddle in a corner type

- it is a ratification of the results of our year-long exercise. It is the pubs which come out on top that are submitted.

Its not perfect, but then anything which is based on a subjective judgement never is, but I believe that the selection processes within CAMRA are improving.

How are entries for other pub/beer guides decided?

John B

'The whims & vagaries of local branches with all their provincial politics' more or less sums up the experiences I mentioned. Unless you know an area well, how are you to tell just how accurate reflection the guide is? In my experience of areas I know well (mostly in the south-east) there are more than a few vagaries - which does nothing to help Joe Public. This not the fault of CAMRA, just a reflection of some branches. I know I am not alone in my experiences, but I accept that it is not a national problem, any more than a landlord has a right to be entered just because he has a free house - and there are a few think that way (landlords that is).

Then it seems that the GBG is becoming a better and more accurate animal, which is good news. Perfection I guess will be impossible, but is still worth aiming for. Most of the other guides are based on independant surveys (using the public & mystery customers - a good job if you can get it!) and of course paid entries - sometimes following a favourable report / survey. The only guide worth packing with the GBG is the 'Real Ale Pub Guide' (Foulsham Publishing) which seems to a GBG clone in many ways, often listing the same pubs (but without the sponsorship). The others do vary widely in their usefulness, esp. the AA & Which? guides. I guess the only answer to a trully useful, and accurate, guide, is one that lists all pubs, cask beers sold (if any), sold on CD-rom, with online updates (via subscription?), that also shows the number of visits, score given, branch responsible etc. Goodness knows who has the time though!

Some have speculated on the reason for the high number of pubs from the previous years Good Beer Guide. Isn't an echo time of 12 months a bit long? >:-)

Steve - we can see no conflict between being an active Branch member and a brewer! In fact we would be delighted to see you at one of our meetings in the Vale. Very often it is useful to see things from a different perspective . Regarding the GBG , I personally see the quota system as the problem, but those who compile it see it as a useful framework and a help.Their idea is to provide a guide which offers a traveller a chance of a good pint wherever he/she goes. It sounds very worthy but it's a bit like issuing a road map with as many roads in the Highlands as in London! It bears no relation with reality - certainly the GBG only contains

Fair point. I hadn't thought of it like that.

d.

The Which? Pub Guide (more of a guide to pub food than beer) has a central editorial selection process and pubs are assessed by regional inspectors who are commissioned to visit the pubs anonymously and are not paid to do so (only expenses). The inspection list is largely based on nominations and reports from readers. No pub ever pays for inclusion.

The Good Pub Guide is run along very similar lines but includes pubs on the basis of beer, wine and other factors as well as food, and has a much higher overall number of entries. I'm not sure if its inspectors are paid or not - I suspect not.

The AA Pub Guide has professional (ie paid) inspectors who often declare themselves at the end of the visit. Scores/awards are decided by a central editorial panel based on the inspector's report. There's less of an emphasis on readers' reports but nominations are welcome. Pubs don't pay to be listed but they can pay extra to have photographs with their entry.

Les Routiers Pub Guide is purely professional, no reader nominations, and tends to go for "character" pubs, with an emphasis on good food. All listed establishments pay for "membership", though selection is based on editorial judgment and you can't just buy your way in.

d.

Well, it's not so much a question of knowing a particular area as being able to assess the quality of a nominated pub to check that it is achieving benchmark standards rather than just being a local branch favourite.

Ideally, every pub nominated by the local branches would be vetted by a Camra "expert". Unfortunately, this is not really a practical option. As it is, I don't believe there is any editorial interference in the selection process at all.

d.

If you want to be an inspector for the Which? Pub Guide, all you have to do is write to them and ask - and send a few reports to prove that you know your stuff.

Of the 'major' UK guides, the only ones to operate this way are Les Routiers, and to a lesser extent the AA Guide (see my other post on the subject).

Or the money...

d.

I can't imagine a branch favoutite pub being one that doesn't reach the benchmark quality! More often IMHO the branch favourite will be one of the best available.

Surprise surprise.

I think I have may have fairly negative experiences with the same branch...

BTN

You've got me intrigued now. Which compass direction?

Martin

It is not unknown for particular pubs to be popular in a branch because of their wide range of obscure beers, even if some of those beers are often in poor condition, particularly in the early part of the week.

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In article , davek writes [snipped]

Many people join organisations because they support the aims and objectives of that body and wish it to continue its work. They may not have the time or energy to become actively involved, nor be the sort of person who is an active campaigner. A late friend who was a very active CAMRA branch secretary called such people 'What's Brewing subscribers'!

Such members' money is vital and their membership helps to show the level of public support for that society/campaign/organisation. It is a fact that almost any voluntary bodyhas just a very small proportion of active members.

You seem to think that no one should be a member of anything unless they make a financial profit out of it. To misquote the late President Kennedy, 'Ask not what your society can do for you, but what you can do for your society'.

I'm glad you asked, Martin.

It's in the same direction as a certain regional brewery run by a certain Mr. Young that is extremely popular with certain CAMRA apologists.

BTN

In message , JohnB writes

Rubbish, we ain't got the social skills for that!

If you want to fit in at a CAMRA meeting, start an argument - you'll be right at the heart of things immediately.