Camra Good beer guide

Like any guide it is out of date the day after it comes out. A bit like a pub recommendation - it all depends on the length of time between survey and when you read it!

Branches have until early March to get their entries in but there is an ammendment period after that.

Don't feed the trolls.

In message , Neil wrote

Branches are already surveying for the 2005 edition.

I presume this is meant to be some sort of dig (apologies if I have misread your intentions) but in fact for many Branches, GBG surveying should be a continuous 52 weeks a year job - constant quality monitoring is the only way to do it, if you can.

John C

The question seemed entirely valid to me as was Brett's reply, which was trying to be helpful rather than your touchy "feeding the trolls".

For several years the CAMRA group I am involved in carries out year long surveying and assessment through a detailed monitoring system to ensure that entries are are up-to-date as the final production process allows.

I do hear allegations (never ever verified) that in the past little groups of mutterers sat in dim pub corners picking their favourite landlords out of hats but I'm sure that no longer occurs (if it ever did).

There will always bee some detractors (where did Bill Foote disappear to?) but by being open and transparent with the selection process, their moans and grumbles will be swept away with the rest of the rubbish.

John B

Hi

Which reminds me of a joke I heard recently.............

One day, Pinocchio and his girlfriend were in bed doing what girls and wooden boys do. As they were cuddling later, Pinocchio could tell that something was bothering his girlfriend. So, he asked her, "What's the matter?" Pinocchio's girlfriend gave a big sigh and replied, "You're probably the best guy I've ever met, but every time we make love you give me splinters." This remark bothered Pinocchio a great deal, so the next day he went to seek some advice from his creator, Gepetto. When Pinocchio arrived, Gepetto could tell something was bothering Pinocchio, and asked him what was the matter. Pinocchio revealed his dilemma to Gepetto. Gepetto searched up and down for a solution. Eventually, he suggested that sandpaper might be able to "smooth" out Pinocchio's relationship with his girlfriend. Pinocchio graciously thanked Gepetto and went on his way. Gepetto had not heard from Pinocchio for a while and therefore assumed that the sandpaper had solved all of Pinocchio's problems. A couple weeks later, Gepetto was in town to have some blades sharpened at the hardware store when he ran into Pinocchio. When he saw Pinocchio buying all the packs of sandpaper the store had in stock, Gepetto remarked, "So, Pinocchio, things must be going pretty damn good with the girls, eh?" and Pinocchio replied: "Girls, who needs girls?!?!?!?!?!?!?"

Regards (with apologies!!!)

KGB

The major problem in keeping the GBG up to date is your friendly (!) pub chain. On the whole , free houses remain fairly consistent and do not change hands all that often. Certainly in our area a couple of what could be really good pubs change hands with indecent regularity because of the rapacious rent demands of the pubcos. Of course any reference book will be overtaken by events before long.

But it is a bit like a misname, isn't it? That was probably the point. Most of information of the book have probably been collected in 2002 - early 2003 at the latest. The book is published in 2003 (and not at the end!). Why then call it GBG *2004*? (not that this is uncommon... even in magazines)

ciao max

In message , Rosalba e Massimo writes

The guides accuracy is determined by when surveying *stops* for each guide. AFAIK entries that turn bad can be yanked right up to the week before going to print. The accuracy of the actual contents is more up to date than it might seem.

There are inevitably deserving new pubs that get missed by the long lead time on initial choice & submission (which annoys the hell out of everyone involved), though if they're any good they get into the next guide. Luckily the core list of pubs changes very little each year despite the chaos in the pub trade, good landlords tend to stick around.

Its never going to be totally current but try not to overstate the problem!

Life is like that. Ask the same of most software, guides maps etc with a year in their title.

And it's often the pubs that see a sudden surge in quality and choice that just as rapidly drop back again. I'd like to bet a high proportion of the reported deletions each year are first-time entries.

--

In message , PeterE writes

The branches that apply a '6-month rule' catch a lot of those pubs before they get into the guide. I think the benefits outweigh the few pubs caught by unlucky timing.

So what do we do then, and this isn't a criticism on comments made, publish the Good Beer Guide for 2003 in 2004.

Most monthly magazines will have their month "X" issue coming out in month "X-1", that's just the way things work.

In message , Weatherman wrote

That is only a month adrift and most of these magazines can be obtained early in the month before the month stated on the cover. Having a 2004 guide ready for Christmas 2003 isn't out of order but 4 months before this may be taking the p*** a tiny bit. Perhaps taking the year out of the title and replacing it with an issue number makes more sense i.e. Issue X is has a life cycle of September 2003 to September 2004.

What's more important with a rapidly changing pub scene is when the information for the guide needs to be submitted. As the advances in technology allows the printing of magazines and books to be quicker the submitting of data for the book still appears to be somewhat stuck in the ways of 20 years ago and possibly out of step for what is required today.

Steamline the submitting of data. Send all the data to the _editor_ directly in an electronic form.

Receive the proof reading copy via electronic means.

yes, yes... replying also to the other posters, this was not meant as a big criticism. I know that this happens in yearly, monthly and weekly magazines - but nevertheless it's a thing that is always a bit disappointing to me, generally speaking. In Italy for example there is a big interest (an competition) about restaurants and wine guides, there are at least 3 or 4 important guides on both subjects; so each one try to get published ahead of the other ones... For CAMRA GBG there is not such a competition, so there is maybe less reasons to do this. Not a big problem, but... well, for example my sister-in-law bought me as a present (and as a surprise) the GBG last year, it was late semptember or beginning of October, and she got the 2002 guide in a bookshop - while GBG 2003 had already come out a couple of week before (I never told her ;-))

Anyway I am a big fan of the Guide, I've been in London last June and my GBG was more than useful.. I should say it was essential! (though most of the pubs that were reported to have Landlord seemd to have switched to Adnams...)

ciao max

But surely "ready for Christmas 2003" means in the bookshops in time for when people start doing their Christmas shopping, which these days can be October or even earlier. Publishing the 2004 edition of a book a few months before Christmas 2003 is pretty much universal - if you look in a bookshop in the next few weeks, you'll see the 2004 editions of everything from motoring atlases to professional handbooks appearing. The Good Pub Guide (which is directly competing with the GBG) is published in early October.

It's certainly frustrating that only complete counties can be submitted electronically at the moment.

What method is used at the moment then?

The GBG2004 is published (like almost all dated publications) before the date on the cover but (and this is the point you miss) most of its lifetime will be in 2004.

The editor has stated he wants to do this. I believe him simply because I have heard him complain about masses of paper rather than nice neat data files for some years. (From before his current stint as editor in fact)

Another complaint, although many branches have electronic communications available at home (most employers don't mind minimal mail use) they don't submit or accept anything in electronic format.

The simple fact is that it's difficult dealing with mixed paper and electronic entries and so the change has to be county by county. It only takes one Luddite in each county...