Beer troubles in Pennsylvania

That's just silly. Hating entire states because they allow beer sales in groceries?

OK, so you're engaging in some hyperbole. But just because some stores don't take great care of their beer doesn't mean all stores are like that. I've seen plenty of (usually upscale) grocers that take good care of their beer, and are excellent places to buy from.

Plus, allowing grocers to sell beer makes it easier for shops to combine gourmet drinks (for lack of a better term) with gourmet foods (a la Bierkraft in Brooklyn or Khan's in Indianapolis or Sam's in Chicago or Hi-Time Wine in suburban LA). And those shops are a good thing

-Steve

He is. I know that Minnesota and Oklahoma also don't allow grocery sales of beer and wine (well, they allow 3.2 beer, but that doesn't count).

BTW, the poster you were responding to pointed out that Illinois and Wisconsin allow sale of beer in groceries.

Probably. OTOH, that beer often times has not been refrigerated, and who knows how long it's been sitting in its case like that. You trade one potential problem for another. It's a wash, IMO.

Even then, it might be close. In Wisconsin, Leinenkugel, Schlitz, Pabst, Miller an Steven's Point all survived as independent breweries into the 70s. What eventually became Heliemann in LaCrosse, as well, although I don't recall the history of that brewery off the top of my head.

I don't know the PA brewery history well at all. Yeungling, obviously, and Latrobe. Who else? Pittsburgh, IIRC, and the Lion.

Independent does not mean regional or local. It means free of other ownership. And, at least in terms of judging the survival of breweries, what difference should it make if they were big or small?

Besides, until the 70s, Schlitz and Bud were really the only big national brands. Miller to some degree as well.

I've heard various theories about the effect PA's case law has had on beer sales, and I've not seen a whole lot of empirical evidence to go along with any of them. Of the prominent theories, I'm less willing to grant this one than the one that credits the case law for the fact that PA enjoys either the largest or second-largest per capita draft beer sales in the country.

-Steve

Oh, Jesus, you guys are really sensitive about this, huh? How's this- "I really find it annoying to be vacationing in or traveling through states where beer is sold in supermarkets. Often, I don't have time to search out a gourmet grocery store (or there's none in the area) and I'm left with one huge, brightly light aisle of national brands and common imports and what local beers they may have often look old and mishandled." (Granted, the same can be said for many- too many- liquor stores in those other states).

It's 3.2 beer. Utah is one of a handful of states that bars sales of beer above 3.2 percent ABW in groceries and convenience stores. Minnesota and Oklahoma do the same.

Part of the reason was that it wasn't until the 70s and 80s that there really became a national beer market. Beer was still largely regional up until that point, with some scattered national brands, mainly Schlitz and Bud.

-Steve

And, other than hunch, what makes you confident in that? Just as I haven't seen any empirical evidence to back the assertion that PA's case law and distributor system helped more regional breweries survive, I haven't seen any empirical evidence that easier accessibility would create more demand.

Plenty of states with "easy" access to beer have seen their consumption drop over the last couple decades. Because, well, alcohol consumption has dropped over the last couple decades in this country. If ease of access were the determining factor, places like Illinois and California with grocery sales and Sunday sales and extensive opening hours wouldn't have seen drops, either.

True for basic retail theory. But, any sales are more complex, and for something like beer that is consumed not only as a product bought at a store, but also at the point of purchase, the rules start becoming a little different. Given the fact that PA is No. 1 or No. 2 in draft beer consumption, there's some circumstantial evidence that Pennsylvanians have simply shifted their consumption patterns as a result of the perceived scarcity of beer.

Only if that's actually true.

_Steve

No. Apparently you stopped reading there, missing the next sentence: OK, so you're engaging in some hyperbole.

Funnily enough, people tend to find what they're used to as the "best" way to go about things. I find PA's system weird, because I'm not used to it. I'm sure if I lived there, I'd adapt in short order. I can certainly see the benefit of getting a beer you like at a pretty good price, since cases are typically cheaper than buying individual six-packs. I also think it would make it more difficult to try new beers, precisely because you have to commit to a whole case.

At the same time, I've lived in states with grocery sales for the last 10 years or so. I'm used to it. It seems normal to me.

I hardly think the fact that I'm used to it makes it "better." Just what I'm comfortable with.

-Steve

"Tom Wolper" posted message IDon Thu, 17 Jun

2004 22:45:06 GMT

I'd certainly hope that this is the case. I drink Yuengling and Sam Adams, usually. When I want a change, I go to the microbrew 3 miles down the road. Take a look.

And I'm guessing that it wouldn't make much difference. Beer drinkers drink beer. If they don't already drink beer, stuffing it in their face won't change much. In any case, it's all speculative at this point, cuz there's no way to test the theory.

I can (and frequently do) do without. However, a six pack and a couple Motrin do more for my arthritis than anything my doctor will give me.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this point. I've never heard anyone say they wanted a beer, but it was just too difficult to get one.

"Steve Jackson" posted message IDon Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:28:44 -0700

Minor point. For me, at least, it's a trivial matter to sample a brew in a bar before I commit to buying more than one. Half-way between my house and my office is a pub with a beer menu that exceeds 100 different beers. If it's in my area, it's there, too.

Carry on.

Yeah, that's where the "4" figure came from- I noted two states that don't allow beer sales in grocery stores, Joel mention two which do. I'm well aware that many states DO allow for grocery store sales- MY point was that the OP was way off to suggest that only PA doesn't.

Kinda depends on how far back one goes, of course (I'm thinking

1960's-up)- Straub, Stoney's (Jones), Horlacher, Reading, Neuweiler, Schmidt's, Ortlieb, Kaier's...

I did not say Independent MEANT regional or local. "Independent" in this case, means NOT simply a branch of a larger chain of breweries.

Huh? Well, say we were talking about survivial of local and regional breweries in New York State. While Genesee struggles, Koch is gone and Matts seems to be doing OK, the Anhueser-Busch plant in Baldwinsville ISN'T part of the question since it's NOT a local or regional brewery, it is part of the A-B chain (i.e., not "independent").

Yes, you've said that twice. Miller was a small company for a national UNTIL the purchase by Philip Morris. In 1967, for instance, they only sold 4.5 million barrels of beer, compared to A-B's 15.5 and 10 million by Pabst and Schlitz. Regional Coors and Schaefer actually out-brewed them with 4.6 and 4.8.

I suppose it all depends on what a "big" national brand means to you.

While there's no doubt that the top brewers of the 40's and 50's and

60's did not have anything close to the market share that A-B alone has today, in brewing, any brewer that had a chain of breweries that allowed for distribution (of at least one brand) over most of the country was considered a "national" brewer and included companies like Pabst, Schlitz, Falstaff, Carling and National.

Heileman was always an unusual case in that, while they had a lot of breweries (many that were once part of the Associated chain) they distributed their beers more like a chain of "regional" breweries and never really attempted to have a 'national' brand (even after they picked up the brand of the merged Carling-National, which had a least one such brand, Carling Black Label [then well-past it's heyday, of course]). Heileman never bothered to penetrate the Northeast market, either.

"People"- hey, you're implying beer aficionados are the same as "people" ? Actually, I think the average beer drinker/buyer LIKES grocery sales, since they're just buying a major brand (or, even better) getting their wife to buy it.

But I was also thinking about this and do agree that specialty beer buyers tend to prefer what they're used to AND, in both our cases, we've used the best possible retailers (Shangy's or good NJ & Mass stores, in my case, Bierkraft Khan's Sam's & Hi-Time Wine, in yours).

Well, I'm in NJ, but have been traveling to PA for 20+ years to buy beer I couldn't get in NJ and/or at better prices.

Oh, no doubt. That's why all my reasons WHY I once liked PA's system AND, more to the point, why I think it was *A* reason for the survival of their local breweries were in the PAST tense. As I said, the beer market has changed and while I used to gladly "take a chance" on a local brand at $6 a case, I'm not so quick to take that same chance on a $30+ case of specialty beer. One finds quite a few of the PA micro's offering "sampler" cases, I take it for just that reason.

Yes, and as a local you generally "know where to go". Today, even when you move, the internet and the "beer media" allows you find good retailers fast (the same goes for me today when I travel to those states).

Did I say "better"? Uh, yeah, I might have but I probably used SOME qualifier, like "generally". I was making a blanket statement that in the past, I used to find , for me, a better selection of beer EASIER in states that had liquor store/beer store sales than those with exclusive grocery store sales. I did, conveniently , ignore all those times I pulled into a distributor in PA (the "drive-thru's" are often the worse, since they look at you weird when you walk in because you're "just browsing") with lousy selections and tons of dusty cases, bad liquor stores in NJ and Mass., etc. But I know that when I lived in New York State I always found a better selection in the little (or not so little) beer stores than in the large supermarket chains. Price was something else again- I used to have a NYS beer retailers license and I paid $5 a case for Utica Club from the distributor and the big chain in town (P&C, maybe?) sold it for 99 cents a sixpack as a lose leader.)

snipped-for-privacy@see.headers (Joel) wrote in news:cass26$ldk$1 @brew.ncsa.uiuc.edu:

I might argue that point regarding the Schlenkerla Rauchbier Urbock I have in my fridge right now.

Ah. I got confused, thinking you meant that we'd covered four with no grocery sales. Or something.

Yeah, 1960s and later is a fair dividing line. And it looks like PA has a bit more than WI in raw numbers, but not by a huge margin.

Right. But, in Wisconsin's case, they weren't just branches of larger chains of breweries. Wisconsin was where these breweries were from. Pabst, Schlitz, Miller, Blatz and Heilemann all originated in Wisconsin. I agree with your later point that you wouldn't include an A-B brewery that happened to be there, but the home breweries should be counted. You count St Lous for AB, but not Newark, for instance.

Responding to different posters, yes.

Don't recall when the purchase was, but it was Lite that propelled them into the No. 2 position.

It's not so much the "big" issue, as that Pabst, Schlitz, etc. should be counted when tallying up how many Wisconsin breweries survived well past Prohibition.

-Steve

Yeah, well, I think at this point we're arguing semantics and it's my fault, really, more or less creating the term "independent" to mean "local and regional" breweries, when it wouldn't have been all that hard to type "PA. had more regional and local breweries than any other state". (And, PA had one more reason why it had so many regionals and locals and NO nationals- IIRC, there was a law that any brewery in PA. had to be locally owned. Brewery mythology claim that's what doomed Neuweiler, home of a lot of interesting beers and ales, in the late

60's. Again, IIRC the law was changed when either Schaefer built their new brewery outside of Allentown OR when Stroh purchased same.)

In the pre-micro days, breweries were pretty much divided up as "local", "regional" and "national", so, in most cases brewers like Pabst, Schlitz et. al. would NOT be counted in the above PA. statement. One of the reasons those Milwaukee brewers BECAME national is just a matter of geography, of course, PA brewers like Schmidt and NYC area brewers like Ballantine, Rheingold and Schaefer could sell as much beer as regionals as a Milwaukee brewer could as a national just because the former were smack in the middle of the largest market.

Yeah, I'd forgotten, too. Just looked it up- 1969/1970- a lot further back than I'd thought. (There was also a rumor at some point that R.J. Reynolds was going to try to duplicate PM's Miller success by buying Schlitz).

Uh-huh, but they couldn't have done that without PM's money, to buy Meister Brau but more importantly to advertise Lite.

Jeez, a whole thread on PA beer and I missed it while I was buried in writing my latest book. It's GOOD to be done! Whatta we got here?

Depends. Where I live now in PA, there are two beer distributors within five minutes' drive, the supermarkets are about the same distance. Where I used to live in PA, the supermarket was within five minutes' walk, and the closest beer distributor was 20 minutes' drive away and didn't stock worth a shit.

Not to hear the neo-prohibitionists tell it. One of their major aims is "limiting access." They see making buying alcohol less convenient as a major tool in driving down consumption. Of course, they also believe in higher taxes to cut consumption, and PA has 'em screwed there: very few states (Wyoming, I think, and maybe Wisconsin) have lower beer taxes than we do.

NOT SO! The tavern owners spend a lot of money lobbying the legislature to keep it that way, because they don't want their lucrative high-markup six-pack business to get hurt. The Repeal-era beer laws that largely drive PA beer sales today were actually written BY the beer wholesalers and enacted by the legislation. At the time, wholesalers thought selling a whole case at a time sounded pretty good; less handling of the beer.

Philadelphia.

More so, but when you look at the number of people who can buy it with relative ease compared to the number of poor bastards out in the sticks, it's not so bad in sheer numbers. Tough for the guys in the sticks, though.

What is your new book?

Tom

Mid-Atlantic Breweries, a guide to the breweries of Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, and DC, due out in May, 2005.

Sweet. Are you gonna pimp it at the AHA NHC in Baltimore?

Depends on whether the publisher actually gets it out on time: when's NHC?

I'm sure somebody knows exactly, but in the past few years it's been around the third week of June. If I were a local organizer for the NHC, I'd personally want to have somebody give a talk about beer in the region. And if you have a book to sell, so much the better. After all, it seems to work for Ken Schramm.