On knowing

I respectfully cannot disagree more.

1. What are the gongfu fixed element, reg, etc? There is nothing ceremonial about it at all. Comparing gongfu with Japanese ceremony in these terms is baseless.

1. You can bring pink baloons to the funeral or fart during pledge of allegiance and still keep your head from being chopped off. So what? Even if you do not respect the deseased or are against the pledge, why insult the feelings of people who do? If all you want is to enjoy tea as a drink why "muck about" the world of deep symbolism and national pride of a society that made the Tea Ceremony its national almost religious ritual? Bushido said that even for a samurai it is better not to know it at all and never particpiate in it rather than do it in an amateur way. If these people put so much of their soul into something, why not just let them have it? You can buy the tea, the wisk, all the things to make both teas they use for the ceremony and drink it without ever touching the ritual side, but why "muck about"? Just because you can do it without your head being chopped off?

Alex.

You miss the point, Alex- the point being that Michael acts like an expert about things where he has no real knowledge.

As Alex stated, gong-fu is not a ceremony. Japan's tea ceremony is tied to a lot of different things- even jazz musicians know that you have to understand something fully before you can improv on it. Mucking with something you don't understand won't improve your understanding of why people do it, how they do it, or the history of doing it. I am sure that Michael is a nice, well-meaning guy. However, he mixes naivete and arrogance in a manner that would frighten a sophisticated 9 year old.

ceremonies.

Alex ChaihorskySQX%c.17632$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com9/9/04

I respectfully disagree still more.

Gungfu has its way and Japanese ceremony has its way. I don't always get my way, but that's just the way life is. You have confused the relative and the absolute.

Sorry, didn't mean to insult anyone. I wonder if we aren't suffering from the snapshot effect. That is, the "ceremonies" as we find them are a slice out of time. But, in reality -- might I misuse that word? -- both forms were and are constantly changing. Dynamic changes take place at the fringes, not in the center. We are the fringe. Dig yourself.

I wouldn't dream of taking it away. If they really have it, I couldn't take it away. You use "amateur" in its most narrow sense, I take it.

Because "mucking about" is the higher form.

Just my opinions, Alex. I enjoy your points, and don't really disagree with them at all; it's all in the way you look at it. In any event, I'm about to embark on a serious gungfu learning adventure. Less later.

Michael

Sorry, completely missing the point. Gongfu is just a set of optional methods, of which one can skip or can combine anything one likes. And add to one's heart desire. You may call it Chinese tea cuisine. Saying that gongfu "has its way" is the same way is to say that French cuisine has their way (with escargot?)

There definitely emerging a new school of thinking that agrees with you, present Administration being a good example. It is a rather good excuse for not knowing and not wanting to learn. However Confucious himself observed that it takes knowledge to understand the importance of knowledge, so let us just wait till you do what you wrote below:

Godspeed.

Alex.

Alex ChaihorskyEUY%c.17636$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com9/9/04

I don't think you missed the point at all. It's just a different way to look at it. In point of fact, Gungfu has a stylized -- one might even say "rigid"

-- set of complex rules and forms, at least in some of its guises. It isn't necessarily the free wheeling thing it sometimes appears to be. Thus, it can be compared quite nicely with the Japanese way. When I said I'm about to embark, I meant that I'm going to learn gungfu from people I personally respect and who can move easily among the ways without getting bent out of shape. I hope I'm making sense for you and offending nobody, or at least nearly nobody.

Mucking about is just my way of suggesting that sometimes its wonderous just to sit down and have a cup of tea. I really believe that ultimately -- I use that word advisedly -- the tea will teach you everything you need to know.

snip

Likewise, Alex.

Michael

hey ! leave the french out of this !

: )

Noway, Jose. If you ever been in Pars you know why - there is no place on earth where teashops age that good.

Alex.

I do live in Paris... and yes... I guess it's easier to find good tea here than in texas ! : )

Hey Alex: You've spent time in China, right? Are you really saying that Paris is a better place to buy tea than, say, Hong Kong? Or, really, any major Chinese city?

/Lew

The tea can only really teach you once it has been brewed.

The simplest aim of the ceremonies is to save reinvention of the wheel by a brewer who knows less than a master of the ceremony.

Very often, if not always, a student only understands the benefits of a brewing technique *after* they have experienced its result.

It would be uncharitable to call the development of brewing technique "trial and error", but it is certainly cyclical and reflective. Choosing not to take full advantage of public knowledge is, well ... odd.

And just to take this into the social commentary that seems to be popular in this group; learning a technique without yet fully appreciating its worth is a consequence of *trust* in a teacher. Trust not to mislead, not to waste time and effort. Choosing not to learn seems, to me, a demonstration of distrust. Distrust in the culture, the traditions, and the community.

Mind you, I think it's healthy to be skeptical and questioning about all things, but that isn't quite distrust.

Cheers,

- Joel

Joel snipped-for-privacy@cindy.panacea.null.org9/9/04

I disagree here, Joel, but only in keeping with my ideas of what "tea" is, for the purpose of our discussion. Tea is more than taste. It's an experience involving all the senses. When making tea, it is in fact a shared effort between you and the tea. Perhaps this makes no sense to you, which is OK with me. Even the shape of the tea and the color and smell of the dry leaf has a lot to teach.

That's arguable, I hope.

Then, it's back to the drawing board again and again. Just like Sysiphus: Up the mountain, down the mountain.

By "odd," you mean to say it's not *your* path, do you not? My faith in public knowledge diminishes the older I get.

"Choosing not to learn" comes pretty much out of left field. Nobody said anything about choosing not to learn. The question we're discussing is how we learn. "Distrust" is not implied. I hope there is room for differences of opinion here, but perhaps I hope in vain.

When it comes to tea, I think knowing it is more important than knowing about it. When it comes to tea, I get a kick out of inventing and reinventing the wheel, trying and erring. Anyway, later.

Cheers, Joel

If you know what you are doing - China is the best place to buy tea. But in China you can also be taken for a ride like you wouldn't believe.

Alex.

No, it makes sense to me, but I don't know why you might want to consider those aspects completely independently of the brewing. In addition to, certainly, but independently?

How so?

Are you agreeing with me? :)

I'll be hardline here. No, I'm not saying it's my path, I'm saying it's everyone's. There's an inherent contradiction in claiming to dismiss *too* much public knowledge, because it's necessarily public knowledge that led you to the decision of dismissal in the first place. Consider that it's other people preparing tea leaves for you to purchase.

So, given that everyone gets most of the way on public knowledge, why not take full advantage? Doing otherwise seems odd, as I said.

To my mind there's also an issue of credit where credit is due. You sit in a house built with public engineering knowledge, making use of appliances designed with public scientific knowledge, etc., etc. And then you claim your faith is diminishing.

I see your point, but I still think that in the trial and error you admit to below, you're choosing not to learn what others have to offer. You may still come to the same understanding as them, of course.

But there's a limit, isn't there?

Cheers,

- Joel

Alex Chaihorsky6Rf0d.13848$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com9/10/04

Alex,

On that note, would you make some suggestions about where to go in China. I'm planning a trip next year. What are the top tea spots from your point of view? And how best to approach so as not be taken for a ride, except of course in a taxi.

Michael

Joel snipped-for-privacy@cindy.panacea.null.org9/10/04

No, not independently. Nor in addition. Interdependently, might we say?

I'm going out on a limb here -- far be it from me to tell a good master how to master -- but I think the ceremony in its simplest aim is to get us out of ourselves and into the tea. Or maybe I'm all wet here. I don't know.

I would like to think so. My case is for the experience of experimenting and working it through being a higher good than concern exclusively for the resulting "product".

Our discussion "should" -- I use that word advisedly, yes -- revolve around our respective meanings of "public knowledge". I'll bet with a little exploration, we might be closer than we think.

Well, odd to you perhaps. It's just a cup of tea after all.

Again, we -- I -- need to be more specific. I was just referring to tea brewing and drinking; not to the entire corpus of human endeavor.

I trust there are many roads to an outcome. The outcome might look the same, but the road counts for more. I'd be dishonest if I said I didn't read, explore, even put myself under the guidance of those I trust teawise, as long as we're talking. By the way, those I trust teawise are pretty much proponents of the "the tea will teach you all you need to know" approach.

I'm sure there is, and when I reach it, I will not be here to tell you.

Cheers, Michael

You are not going to believe it, but taxi is no problem at all. At the end ask for recept (Fa Piao). They do not expect to be tipped (Beijing) and will give you full change. Certainly they can take you by the long road, but its so cheap anyway.. I spent last time a month in Beijing, going everywhere by taxi and when I got back and put all the receipts together - it was $120.

Tea - in Beijing my favourite place was a teashop on the last floor of the

Sanlitun Yashow Clothes Market

The best way I assume you have NO knowledge of Chinese whatsoever) is to hire a guide-translator (aout 400 Y or $50). But not just anyone - ooyou will be taken for two rides insted of one. I can reccommend you one if you want, closer to the time of your trip. My knowledge of Chinese was enough to manage on my own. The rule of thumb (Americans seem to love these) - if you left the tea shop and yuou spent around 1,000 yuan, you need help carriying your packets. If you can carry them yourself - you 've been had. But with the dollar/yuan exchage rate (very unfair for Chinese) your are better than OK anyway. Expect a very good tea like very good Te Guan In be around $10 for a large can. Good white fur green tea - $3 a large can. Some tiny shops in hutongs also have very good tea and very low prices. Your Chinese friends can buy it for you. Ask Mike about Kunmin tea markets - they suppose to be the paradise of ytea, I have never been there.

Alex.

I was talking more about the essence of a ceremony -- any kind of ceremony. You don't necessarily need a ceremony if you know what you're doing, but if you don't know what you're doing, being told what to do by ceremony helps. Hence what I said above.

I'm surprised they say it will teach you *all* you need to know. I'm curious -- can you ask them what they think of tea ceremony then?

Cheers,

- Joel

Joel snipped-for-privacy@cindy.panacea.null.org9/10/04

OK, so by "ceremony" you mean a bunch of rules, perhaps? Kind of guide posts? Might I say we are exploring the difference between deductive and inductive ways of tea?

Would you be happier if I removed the "all"? Consider it dismissed. I have lingering shadowy Wordsworthian memoires of flowers.

Michael

Thanks, Alex. We'll talk more for sure. How many days do I get out of my guide-translater for my 50 smackaroos?

Michael

Alex Chaihorsky7nh0d.13851$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com9/10/04