One more Pu-Erh mistery

how was darjeeling I want to go!!!1

Awesome people, nature, food and TEA. I spent some years in the Himalayas, definetely one of my most favorite spots on this planet. They´re about the only place that old rambler feels "at home" (that doesn´t mean too much though).

Karsten [Brahmaputra calling, back to that XXX Assam blend]

Really? In Kalimpong?!! I feel like a fool to think I once spent a day wandering around that town aimlessly when I could have been trying to track down that factory. Do you know anything more than you've already said?

I don't think it's possible to know a priori what, if anything, they add to the pile. By the way, technically this tea wouldn't be Pu'er if they were using Indian leaf or, in fact, anything other than the Da Ye cultivar from Yunnan.

Cooked Pu'er varies a lot in quality, and the quality of the leaves has got to be a part of this. Remember that the Wuliangshan cooked

Hey, you could try that in East Frisia!

Please do!

/Lew

There's no real culture that needs to be brought around, and whatever there is, it's kept way secret. Menghai, for example, has supposedly a "Menghai" taste because they have basically developed their own culture after all these years, and that's something nobody else can get. The whole cooked puerh process is quite secretive, and generally you won't be allowed to visit the cooked puerh workshop at all, no matter who you are. It's the one thing that sets the big operations apart from the small ones. Everybody can do raw cakes.

Any evidence of chemical tampering ala the tobacco industry?

Thanks, Jim

MarshalN wrote:

What exactly can you try in East Frisia? Sorry for the hijack, but I have a Frisian fetish.

Alex

Composting local leaves into ... Pfui'er? My point, I suppose, was that, freed of the requirement to use C. sinensis, Karsten could mulch leaves and press cakes more or less anywhere photosynthesis is practiced.

Aren't you glad you asked?

/Lew

This is actually something I have been hunting for a reputable reference on for quite a while now. I have heard "rumors" that some factories will introduce some puerh from a previous batch to inoculate the current batch, sort of like they do with sour dough bread, but I have never found a solid reputable reference that confirms this. Like you say, they are all VERY secretive about it often citing "State Secret" etc as if they would be prosecuted if they told.

I do have a series of roughly about 8 pictures from one shop showing various stages of the process, while the series is interesting it is by no means definitive. I will post it again after Halloween is over. On the surface it appears that it is a simple composting like process where the tea is kept in big piles, turned frequently, and the temperature of the pile is closely monitored and kept intentionally very hot (hence cooked) although I have never found out what exact temperature is desired. I think the turning time schedule, depth of the pile, temperature, moisture level, etc are the variables that are so closely guarded, particularly the variables that are reproducible. This type of composting would naturally lead to certain bacterias forming, thriving, and dying throughout the process. I have also heard of batches where the process got away from them and the tea had so much residual bacterial activity that it made people sick.

------- Mike

A good point to ponder, I've actually thought about this a couple times since being part of this NG. I'd love to try Puerh-like tea based on DJ, Sencha, Keemun, etc. I think some teas would absolutely suffer and be rendered undrinkable, but others may be surprising. (I think certain DJ's would be pretty damn good, a nice earthier muscatel flavor would be cool I think) I don't think I'd be drinking any of my bonsai clippings however :) Maybe Kudingcha though (ilex/holly leaf) it may produce something neat with the bitterness.

I do think you need a fairly hearty leaf to begin with, and green/white may not work at all, but I wish there were more experimentation with tea than there is. This sounds like a worthy trial to undertake if only anyone would. And to be honest I could be completely ignorant of prior attempts in the past to do just this, but with modern renewed interest and processing you would think it could be done.

- Dominic

There are lots of teas (mostly cooked) like this from various parts of China under the category of hei cha (black tea.) There's a big market for these in Tibet, Mongolia, and western China. There are also teas of this kind from Indochina.

/Lew

Kind of. I guess I was hoping that the Frisians were making rose hip pu'er or something like that. I've learned my lesson.

I believe Menghai does that, and the others I suspect as well. People say there's a Menghai taste. It comes from somewhere.

Yep !

Not too much Lew, when I showed that particular shroom to my tea guru he just whinced [he only drinks DJs] and mentioned that place in Kalimpong. He said he´d know those guys and we could have a look around during my next trip. I also remember a pic of that place but don´t remember who showed it to me. Pretty basic to say the least.

I wonder if they add anything of that sort at all. I need to get there myself next time.

Ye cultivar from Yunnan.

I could happily live with the term "Himalayan Pu-Erh" or something like that. I´m just wondering if any of our north indian friends is lurking around: Sidman, SMC, or Rajiv, hehe. Don´t want to press the thinking out loud department too much now. Guess what I discussed with my tea guru the last time around.

I´m still not too much into Pu-Erhs, but compared to all the stuff I tried in China and that humble stash I keep over here I wouldn´t rank that Kalimpong anywhere near to the top. Once you add those lumps of rancid butter and some soda/salt it doesn´t really need to be any decent stuff at all.

Hey Lew, I didn´t mean to sound weird here, I´m serious [at least as serious as I can get, forget about the bonsai c.]. And then there is marketing [East-Friesean longevity nettle-shrooms, yadda yadda].

Karsten

Lewis Per>

Sorry for hijacking this all the way back but just to feed your fetish, the national sports over here are: "Schlickrutschen" [skidding through low-tide mud] and "Bosseln" [canal bowling].

I´m currently trying to get away from here, so much about choices.

Karsten [2006 Spring Alishan]

Alex wrote:

The nettle man is seated at the table in the laboratory of the Utility Nettle Research Kitchen. Reaching for an oversized titanium spoon he gathers an intimate quantity of dried poop remnants ...

K...

Wouldn´t it ?! Heck, all it basically takes is some time [LOL]. As mentioned before I´ve discussed this with my big brother at several occasions but time was running out then, and just sniffing that shroom gave him the shivers so I´d be on my own with this one. I´d really like to know if any of the DJ growers ever tried anything in that direction. No signs so far.

Unfortunately from what I´ve learned up there it´s not that easy for outsiders - not impossible though, but I personally don´t expect things to radically change in the near future. This game is still 100% ruled by money and traditions, with very few noteworthy exceptions, sniff ... See conventional vs. bio-organical farming, or packing teas [grrrr] - why change anything ? Also remember that not only the odd garden but the whole tea industry in DJ had been lying in ruins several times in the 50s, 60s and 70s and nobody, except the workers gave a SH.T. To give you an idea: 8 months ago when my neighbor´s house burnt down, the fire brigade arrived 1 hour late AND without water. Get the point ?

One more for sentimental reasons: I accidentally washed my pants with my train ticket still in the pocket. Totally unreadable. Bang. Next day I went down to the train station to have it replaced. Once they learned the story a chain reaction started. Replacement yes, new ticket NO [10 bucks, and I HAD to leave to catch my flight]. A bunch of station managers gathered around me, took me to their office, 2 hours of discussions, uncounted endless phone calls all over India, then they had me walk over to the police. I had to file a THEFT! report, they wouldn´t accept the laundry story. I´ve been through some of that before but never got as close to getting ballistic, "keep face", "keep face", ... Another 90 minutes closely watched by an average 6-10 policemen before

Back to nettles and rose-buds ...

Karsten [2006 Alishan]

I can usually recognize a taste in raw Xia Guan but have never really noticed a unique taste in cooked Mengahi, although I am sure it is possible and I am just not attuned to it. If there is a unique trait to Mengahi cooked, couldn't it just come from a certain control of the time/temp/aeration variables? Maybe they have a unique process recipe that is conducive to certain microbial strains, ie each type of microbe tends to favor different specific conditions under which they will multiply prolifically and MH might use a process that accentuates some certain microbe. Obviously XG does something in their process that makes it unique, and being raw I don't suspect added beasties as the source. I would love to find confirmation that XYZ strains were manually added though as that would explain a lot.

____ Mike

Well, it takes a lot to sound weird around here. And besides, the wise man said "Goodness is a judgment for the mouth to make."

/Lew

Wow, great post... the clock does indeed tick slower and I love that as well... and tea has staunchly stayed traditional and old school. There is nothing wrong with that, and I could see how this idea would be seen as radical or unworthy to any true puerh artisans but I bet there are a few radical ones who wouldn't be afraid to step out of the box to try something new. Finding that needle in a large haystack is another story... I'd still love to taste it though.

on a slight side-note... I think I've seen you mention a love for the muscatel/muscat flavors... if so there is an amazing drink made by a company called Haitai. It is a little squat cola-like can with the word Muscat on the front. It is amazing. It is a pure muscat drink with small chunks of muscat all through it. mmm. I get it in asian markets (especially Korean groceries). Also I've recently become a complete devotee of moscato wines.

Another slight tangent, I had a great conversation with the owner of a local indian restaraunt I frequent by my home and he was telling me how the culture is changing quite rapidly in India and he isn't happy. With Bangalore booming and such he stated how his mother is trying to hold onto her values such as making everything from scratch and not eating packaged foods and preservatives and such. That is what is good about those places, and unfortunately to try to "compete" with the west they are accelerating too rapidly to our unhealthy fast-paced lives and I (and he) think it is a huge mistake. In that way I'd love to never see DJ puerh, just to keep them honest and traditional. But damn would I love to try it :)

- Dominic