Two Tomintouls 1967 - different casks

Hi all,

I have just conducted a most interesting vertical tasting of two Tomintouls

1967 36yo from Adelphi Distillery. The only difference between these two (if you look at the bottles only) is the number of casks they come from. They are nos. 4479 and 4481 - only two casks away from one another, so I assume they must have been put into cask within, say, 15 minutes from one another. And they most obviously come form the same distillation. Both bottled at cask strength, which in this case is 47.2% and 46.9% respectively. Could they be any different in flavour? Absolutely!

The one that's approx 15 minutes older (though who knows in what order they were bottled), i.e. cask no. 4479 is a light straw colour with a lemony tinge. The undiluted NOSE is quite spirity, very light, grainy and flowery, with fresh peat, slightly peppery-ish. What fantastic legs! A few drops of WATER (I'm fond of adding water to my whiskies, and it does change their flavour - though not always for the better - ad vocem a different thread), the spirit goes away a bit, whisky becomes lighter, the aromas sort of spread wider. Some interesting woody notes appear, the floweriness becomes accaccia-like. There are wild strawberries and cherry tree resin (a childhood memory). Very pleasant overal. On the PALATE, it's light, delicate, beautifully, smoothly sweet. A mixture of soft fruits, hard to define, but with dominating strawberry flavour. Plus vanilla. Delicate peppers, coffee, very delicate wood, and finally some fresh walnuts. Not much happens on the palate, the flavours come as if at the same time, but they are very well balanced, distinctive. The FINISH is not too long, sweet and peppery, with echoes of woodiness (rather unusual, but I'm lost for words to desrcibe it more precisely), fresh peat. Score 4.5 (from 1 to 5).

The younger one (cask no. 4481) is just a touch darker, with ambery hue instead of the lemon. They almost look the same. But it seems this is where the similarities end. The undiluted NOSE is remarkably heavier, with marzipan, chocolate and coffee cake, fruity syrup sweetness, peach-like and grapey-ish, fresh peat. A few drops of WATER draw some woodiness to the front and a lot of herbal notes, especially dill. Toffee. The coffee, chocolate and marzipan notes are still there, but they are more subdued. On the PALATE, it is light too, less obviously sweet, more herbal, with the herbs growing, and the whole thing becoming gradually more and more assertive, tickling your tongue deliciously. Then suddenly, the tingling on the tongue ceases, and teh mouth is yet again full of smooth, silky, fruity sweetness. Bitter chocolate notes appear towards the end. Seems as if the cask had been used for sherry maturation, but then used and re-used repeatedly for whisky maturation. Don't know if this is the case, but it sure has echoes of what seems like sherry influence. The FINISH is considerably longer, sweet, woody, with heavy syrupy notes. Score 4.5.

There you are - the same whisky, two different casks, only two numbers away from one another, 36 years of maturation, and the result is no longer the same whisky. That echo of sherry in the second whisky intrigues me a bit. I mean, is it possible that the cask had been used for maturing sherry in the distant past? It definitely was not a first- or second fill - the sherry influence would be much more obvious. It was not a butt - it yielded only

163 bottles, even fewer than the other cask (194), which was definitely an ex-bourbon. Any comments on that? Because if it had been used for sherry, if there was such a possibility, then the flavour differences would be more easily explained. I'm going to write to Adelphi and enquire. See what they have to say about it. Their website is not helpful in that respect at all.

Cheers, Rajmund

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Reply to
Rajmund M.
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Hi Rajmund,

as you should know, the cask is for 70-75% responsible for the taste of the whisky.

Marc "Rajmund M." schreef in bericht news:btcjh9$9c$ snipped-for-privacy@nemesis.news.tpi.pl...

Reply to
Segers Marc

[snip]

I once asked "when does a cask go from being ex-sherry to being plain wood?" and was told that, at least at this one large speyside distillery, the decision is made when the cask is emptied. The whisky is quickly - and I mean very quickly - nosed and if sherry is noticed it's marked as a refill sherry cask for it's next use, if it isn't it's plain wood. There isn't a consistent number of fills or careful recordkeeping that determines whether it will be considered ex-sherry or not - just a quick nosing. On average though it's about three fills.

It seems to me a cask could nose as plain wood when emptied of 5 or

8 year old whisky but still have enough sherry influence that it could flavor a whisky that sat in it for 36 years. So it's possible that Adelphi wouldn't know, or that their records might be inaccurate. I'd be interested in hearing what they have to say if they respond, though.

Bart

Reply to
Bart

When I drink my Glenlivet 12 I keep thinking to myself that it's fascinating to be drinking something that has sat in a cask in Scotland for

12 years. How many casks do a typical well known scotch producer have? Thousands? What happens to a cask that's been sitting for eighteen or twenty years? Does it get used again or just thrown away? If a cask determines the taste of a scotch more than anything else, then shouldn't these scotch producing companies have casks made out of many different types of wood? Heck, I got a bunch of big walnut trees in my back yard they could make casks out of, lol. Wonder what that would taste like.
Reply to
Von Fourche

Yes

Reused at times, most 'new' casks have been used for other beverages earlier - sherry, port or even bourbon, for instance.

They do

Not all wood is suitable, resin, porosity for rate of evaporation and so on Anders

Reply to
Anders Tørneskog

Am 05.01.2004 21:51 emaillierte Rajmund M.:

Just a thought: the first cask has been filled with the beginning of the "middle cut" while the second one was filled when the destillation process had progressed. That would also explain the slight difference in strength which decreases in the process, and maybe why the second cask delivered fewer bottles: the middle cut ended and the cask wasn't completely filled. Does anybody know how much whisky the filling of one spirit still usually (or in this case, at Tomintoul) delivers?

Bernd

Reply to
Bernd Oberschachtsiek

"Bernd Oberschachtsiek" wrote

snip

Not likely. The spirit is collected in the spirit receiver, and afterwards the casks are filled. The spirit would have a strength of up to 70% dependent of where they cut. At most distilleries, the abv is lowered to e.g. 63,5% before cask filling. Others e.g. Bruichladdich fill at full strength, which used to be the case too in earlier days.

Reply to
Karl Ejnar Christensen
Reply to
Karl Ejnar Christensen

Yes, there's something romantic about old whiskies. To think how long they have been slumbering away. Who was president then? Or prime minister? What was on television? Or the radio? Where were you and what were you doing then? Something to think about when enjoying your dram...

Thousands. Sometimes thousands upon thousands for big companies that own multiple distilleries. And that's just malt whisky. More casks lay resting filled with grain whisky.

They get reused many times, until there is nothing more in the wood for the whisky to absorb. Most whisky casks were once previously used to age American bourbon. And a good number were previously used for sherry in Spain. But also casks which were previously used to age port and various other wines, rum, beer, and brandy have been used to age scotch. I've heard some producers are looking into using casks previously used to age tequila. Some of these experiments work well and become more widespread - lots of producers have tried port casks, often called "port pipes". Others are disappointing, or just weird. The wood absorbs a little of the product it's aging, then when it's used to make whisky the whisky absorbs some flavors of the sherry, port, or whatever. It's not much at all by volume, but it's enough to be noticed in the smell and taste of the whisky. The next time it's used to make whisky it has some of the flavor of the sherry, or port, or what not, but not as much as before. When it no longer adds the taste and aroma of it's previous contents it's called plain wood.

Plain wood can still be good though, especially for whisky that's aged for many many years. Aging whisky for very long times in new casks will give the whisky too much from the wood, till you can barely taste the whisky anymore. Casks that have been used before and have less to give the whisky can be a better choice for 20, 25, 30 year old and older whiskies.

But there are some people who like huge amounts of wood flavor in their whisky - and some who like very little.

Michael Jackson has written that there are a few very old casks laying around made out of chestnut or mahogany, but I've never heard anymore about it than his rumor. By law since 1988 only oak casks may be used to make scotch whisky; so even if these casks do exist, and their contents were bottled, it couldn't be called or labeled "whisky" as I understand it.

I've wondered what it would taste like if they used mesquite?

Bart

Reply to
Bart

Uzytkownik "Bart" napisal w wiadomosci news: snipped-for-privacy@texas.net...

Exactly the point I made in some other threa recently. These two Tomintouls are exactly my age - they were distilled while I was still at the maternity ward at the local hospital. If that doesn't give you a high (Jimmy Smith), then I don't know what can ;-)

[snip]

That probably was the case with my Tomintouls - there is not a trace of the nasty, mouldy old wood type of notes that you sometimes get with much younger whiskies.

Cheers, Rajmund

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Reply to
Rajmund M.

Uzytkownik "Bernd Oberschachtsiek" napisal w wiadomosci news:btf5ip$6ebs3$ snipped-for-privacy@uni-berlin.de...

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. Shortly after distillation the spirit from a few runs is vatted in what is called a spirit receiver before casks are filled. So, in one huge vat you will have the beginning of the middle cut and the rest of the cut. And a few cuts more.

Depends on the size of the stills. The ones used at Tomintoul are relatively big, only slightly smaller than those at, say, Jura (which takes pride in their large stills).

Cheers, Rajmund

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Reply to
Rajmund M.

Uzytkownik "Bart" napisal w wiadomosci news: snipped-for-privacy@texas.net...

snipped-for-privacy@NIELUBIESPAMUwhisky.pl says... [snip]

Just as I was posting my resopnses to the other posts in this thread, I got a reply from Jamie Walker at Adelphi (I'm still an old-fashion modem user). As you predicted, all the info they can provide is that each of the whiskies comes from a hogshead. No information about previous inhabitants of those casks, how many times they were re-used, etc. And the fact that they were hogsheads can be guessed from the number of bottles each yielded, so we are no nearer the truth. Still, they agree on a slightly more sherry-related notes found in one of the whiskies.

Cheers, Rajmund

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Reply to
Rajmund M.

Very fascinating about the casks. Does wine also get it's flavor from casks or is that something totally different?

VF

Reply to
Von Fourche

Oak casks do impart certain qualities to wines and may add complexity to the taste and flavour of some wines, depending on the wood used (American oak is notably different from French...). However, grape varieties, climate, soil and cellar work are the most important factors. Anders

Reply to
Anders Tørneskog

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