Cahors - are they ever drinkable?

Nils,

I object to the subject line... ;)

You wish to draw general conclusions from 3 different wines? In fact Triguedina can be approachable young, the 90 was a monster but fruit driven, good for those that like that sort of thing.

In a softer year cahors can be pleasant young, contrary to the "black wine" reputation. I recommend Dom. de Gravelous or Ch. des Ifs. Fine and silky within several years.

Hope it's not too cold up there, in Normandy we have gone straight to winter.

cheers,

-E

"Nils Gustaf Lindgren" wrote in news:Pf6Vi.12429$ snipped-for-privacy@newsb.telia.net:

The wine is actually made by Georges Vigouroux owner of Chateau de Mercues, ok more properly the estate is managed by a company owned by G.V.

Malbec is traditionally a big meat, steak kind of wine, break out some elk (oh I think you have a different name for it gulp) ok try caribou.

Most Cahors today seems to be made in a somewhat modern style and has little in common with the old "black" Cahors. From a commercial standpoint this likely was necessary, because few would wait for an old classic Cahors to age up to several decades - right or wrong, it does not have the "star" reputation of say top Burgundy or Bordeaux. And few, if any, of the growers would have the resources to age it before release at a few decades of age.

Clos de Gamot was one of the few that kept classic Cahors alive in the last century. I don't know how their recent vintages stack up. I had a bottle of their 1937 a year or two ago, and I think I gave tasting notes here. It was still quite drinkable and likely would last at least several more years. It had thrown a large amount of very dark sediment over the years. When young, you likely could not see through the wine except using a very strong light. It reminded me a bit of some Northern Italian wines. It had plenty of acids. The tannins were fairly well resolved, but still quite apparent and somewhat dry. It likely would be good with game, well hung if you like that sort of thing. It likely could hold up to even roast mastodon, especially when the wine is somewhat younger. Frozen mastedons still sometimes are found in ice in Siberia and elsewhere, and wild animals sometimes eat them. However, I fear that if I ate mastedon, I would soon be a guest at the local hospital and have a stomach pump used on me :-) .

"Joseph Coulter" skrev i meddelandet news:Xns99D7B4CB5828Ayourvacationcomcastn@216.196.97.136...

He, yes, we had a discussion concerning the difference between elk and moose a year or so ago. "Elk" would be Alces alces, while caribou would hardly be obtainable. Reindeer OTOH can be had for a small amount of money, year round, even if it is frozen. Roe has a very gamey taste (here in Sweden, at least), comparable to fallow deer. It stood up magnificently to these (slightly) brooding beasts ...

Cheers

Nils

Salut/Hi Nils Gustaf Lindgren,

le/on Sun, 28 Oct 2007 20:26:23 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

An interesting choice of wines. Not those I'd have made to see how long it can take for Cahors to come round. I rather agree with Emery's reaction to your subject.

Cahors is in a total mess right now. Practically no one is prepared to let it age the 10 to 15 years it needs. Btw, "Black" Cahors! hasn't seriously existed since '52, when the frosts destroyed the vineyards. One or two guys are re-releasing it, but that's more for the marketing people than to sell.

There are some perfectly palatable Cahors at very reasonable prices. I am just about finishing a 10l wine box of 2004 Ch Latuc which cost me about €3 a litre and has been drunk to general acclaim. However, "serious" Cahors, like Ch La Caminade Clos La Commanderie, or Ch La Greze, or Ch Prieuré de Cénac (from Rigal) or Baldès top wine, Prince Probus, all deserves to be treated with just as much respect (and aging) as a 3rd or 5th growth Medoc. Jyst because it's cheaper doesn't mean it's less worthy, merely a better vfm.

As for food matches. It's like any other wine, you need to know your wine before you look to match it with food. Most Cahors is tannic, quite rough and meaty. Just as you'd not serve a subtle elderly 25 or 40 years old Medoc with a great big venison casserole, so you would be mad to serve a Cahors with some plainly roast pork.

If you make a cassoulet, THAT'S the time to pull a Cahors, and just as it would be sad never to have the dish, so it would be sad not to match it with a rough and tumble red that cuts through the richness of the dish and is softened by it!

Bon appetit Ian La Souvigne - France

Absolutely. Tannin and fat mix to form a nasty powdery sensation on the palate, and there is no acidity to cut through all that fat. And Cahors is about the most tannic thing you can uncork, the very WORST wine you could ever open with pork roast. So far I follow.

Cher maître, I know the above combination is what is dictated by tradition, but like some other traditional pairings that are well known and followed not just by the general public but even by people that should know better (Sauternes and foie gras, dry champagne with sweet desserts), I shudder at the thought...

Traditional cassoulet is much fatter than any pork roast, the beans are literally swimming in goose fat, and all around there are pork sausages, pork "échine", pork rind and goose confit (preserved in fat). So if a big tannic wine is not compatible with roast pork, how could it be ok with beans, goose fat, pork fat and sausages?

Would it not be better to serve a lively zingy low-tannin red from some exceptional Beaujolais village? Or a pure carignan from old vines? Or a sharp chenin from the Loire? Or a pinot gris from Alsace? Or one of the better Tavels? None of these would be ideal possibly, but surely much better than Cahors?

Anyhow, welcome back to the NG, we need you here!

Salut/Hi Mike & Nils

le/on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:12:46 +0100, tu disais/you said:-

Ah but that's not at all what I was thinking of. I must say I don't agree with you over the fat business. My thought was that pork is actually quite a delicate meat - when compared with lamb or beef or even a duck confit. So a light, delicate meat, matched against a big bruising tannic wine will be swamped by it in my view. Same would go for a chickum. I also can't agree that they are lacking in acidity. That said I know that you like wines with much higher levels of acidity than I do, so this might be part of the reason behind our differences.

Well you know, it's not because it's traditional that I do it, but because in my book it's good. Cassoulet, no matter whether it be from Carcassonne, Castelnaudary or Toulouse, is very powerful in flavour - when I make it it's not too fatty, as I cook out much of the fat from the salt belly and make my own sausages with about 25-35% only. And then I drain off excess fat before assembling the dish. Don't get me wrong, I'm no advocate of emasculating dishes because they have fat, but beans absorb the stuff so well that you can end up with a dish where the fat isn't in any sense obtrusive. Anyway, it's a great big dish, and needs a great big wine. I'd happily drink La Nine from JP Senat against it, or even experiment with a tougher Cote de Rhone. But I LIKE tannic wines with fatty dishes, from cassoulet to confit.

Not in my view, no. But isn't that what makes wine and food matching so endlessly interesting? We both have a certain experience of it, yet can (in good humour) entirely disagree.

You're most kind. Though as I said, it's not for very long. (and thanks also to the kind words from my other friends here). Bon appetit Ian La Souvigne - France

Ian Hoare wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Chicken ? I have in hand a glass of Argentine Malbec which I am about to eat with leftover roast chicken. Escorihuela Gascon 2006 admittedly not a tannic monster has em but is a fairly fruity expression of the grape (also a QPR at @12 USD which given current exchange rates is cheap anywhere else even Canada)

You echo my own thoughts, Ian. I have always considered tannins to be an asset when pairing fatty meats. That's why young Cabernet Sauvignon works so well with grilled steaks, especially rare ones that haven't had all their fat rendered. For my part, I've tested various wines with my cassoulets and found that, yes, Cru Beaujolais and Aussie Shiraz are passable (a 3 on the Hoare scale and incidentally two wines recommended by H. Johnson for this purpose) but Madiran is a solid 4. I haven't tried _young_ Madiran, but I suspect that, within reason, it would pair reasonably well, too.

I've heard it rationalized that the astringent nature of younger tannins is also what's reponsible for the affinity for fats: the polyphenols of the tannin molecules actually bind the fats and help remove them from the surface of the tongue, thereby cleansing the palate, if not the bloodstream ;-)

So a

Yes, roast pork to me calls for a powerhouse white or rosé. A lighter Beaujolais might also work well with it, but then again I'll drink a good Bojo with many different foods.

Hey! I thought that you didn't have a traditional cassoulet recipe... Acquired one since 23 Jan 2003?

Bon apetit yourself, Mark Lipton

(currently researching coq au vin recipes for a Fête de Bourgogne planned for this weekend -- 3 '88 GCs on deck)

Salut/Hi Mark Lipton,

le/on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:55:27 -0400, tu disais/you said:-

Luc de Conti has THE wine for roast pork. It's called "Jour des Tendres" and is a pink made by saignée from his top reds, it then has 6 years in barrel.

Yup.

Got one of those too. Keep an eye on your Mbox. Bon appetit Ian La Souvigne - France