I opened a bottle of Chateau de Beaucastel (Chateauneuf-du-Pape blanc)
1997 Vielles Vignes last Sunday and....well, it was not corked. If it was corked, than it was so in a way that I have never come up against. So what was it? Already faded? There was this tang that I don't have the proper language to describe. Old apple orchard?
I realize that without tasting it I am asking a lot of all of you...but surely there is some common thing here that I don't know about. I still have the bottle, corked and cooled, so if you want to ask some specific questions to help me not only understand what is up with this wine but also how to describe it, please chime in!
The V.V. bottling is all Rousanne, and not to everyone's taste. But the words "old" and "apple" next to each other says oxidation/maderization to me. My guess is less than optimal storage, as this is usually a very long lived wine. Dale
I'll have to look into its deep and dark past a bit. I've had the bottle for about 3 years and it was safe in my vinoteque for all that time, and it came to me from a reputable sort. The importer was Julienne Importing Co. out of Chicage, but I've had many bottles from them and never a problem. So I'm going to say it was Colonel Mustard in the conservatory with the rope.
winemonger wrote: : I opened a bottle of Chateau de Beaucastel (Chateauneuf-du-Pape blanc) : 1997 Vielles Vignes last Sunday and....well, it was not corked. If it : was corked, than it was so in a way that I have never come up against. : So what was it? Already faded? There was this tang that I don't : have the proper language to describe. Old apple orchard?
: I realize that without tasting it I am asking a lot of all of : you...but surely there is some common thing here that I don't know : about. I still have the bottle, corked and cooled, so if you want to : ask some specific questions to help me not only understand what is up : with this wine but also how to describe it, please chime in!
Mr Monger,
this this should by all accounts be an excellent bottle of wine, but you most likely caught it during a dumb-phase that southern Rhone whites usually go through during middle age (roughly 3-4 years past vintage to around 8-9 and longer). If you have more, put it away until
I dropped the ball on this part of your post: the ullage was not noticably large (is that how one would say it?) I didn't inspect it too closely before opening the bottle, but I did give things a once over and I feel certain I would have spotted that problem.
That said, the more I think on it, the more I feel certain it was the telltale rotten apple aroma.
In response to the last post on this thread, re: "dumb phase". I seem to remember reading that during this dumb phase the wine loses its fruit, but that doesn't sound right now. I must be remembering this wrong.... somebody want to talk more to this?
le/on 4 May 2004 17:13:46 -0700, tu disais/you said:-
"Large" is fine.
Yes, I think that's practically certain. So it's not a bottle with such a faulty cork as to have let a lot of wine out, nor, (in view of your vinotheque comment) stored with rapidly changing wide temperature variations, which can also drive wine out of the bottle.
Very odd.
Well, when a wine passes through a dumb phase, basically it "closes down". It's not so much that it loses any particular component of its character, but more a matter of not having much of anything to say. You sniff it, get little or nothing. You swirl it around in the glass - still showing little or nothing on the nose. And it stays like that. Now if your wine is an unknown wine of which you've not heard, sold dirt cheap, the obvious implication is that it's showing nothing quite simply because it's got nothing to show! BUT, if it's a wine with a good reputation, and shows no obvious faults, like seepy cork, or large ullage etc, and no particular "off notes", then there are two remaining (more or less common) causes.
1 It could be that the wine is very slightly corked, not enough to allow you to detect the characteristic wet dog/cardboard of TCA, but sufficient to mask the wine's character.
The wine is dumb. It's showing nothing. The analogy with a teenager is marked!! (;-))). An d the solution is (arguably the same for both - chuckle) If you pour a bit into a glass, seal off the top by clamping your hand over it, and shake like hell, you may find that you have shaken the wine out of its dumb phase for a brief moment and projected it into the future. Ten mins later it will be dead, but at least you'll have confirmed that the wine has somewhere to go. It might even be worth giving it 2-24 hours in a decanter, to see if it is able to open out.
] > ] > I'm tempted to ask what the ullage was like. ] ] I dropped the ball on this part of your post: the ullage was not ] noticably large (is that how one would say it?) I didn't inspect it ] too closely before opening the bottle, but I did give things a once ] over and I feel certain I would have spotted that problem. ]
No noticable ullage? Anyway we understood.
] That said, the more I think on it, the more I feel certain it was the ] telltale rotten apple aroma. ]
I think you just got a bad bottle. Sometimes that happens, and has nothing to do with TCA. Rotten apple sounds cooked to some of us hence the ullage question. But even without leakage, the wine might have been cooked. Or the cork not a good seal, so it was just oxydized to within an inch of its life.
] In response to the last post on this thread, re: "dumb phase". I seem ] to remember reading that during this dumb phase the wine loses its ] fruit, but that doesn't sound right now. I must be remembering this ] wrong.... somebody want to talk more to this?
This doesn't sound like a dumb wine, just bad. Sorry it happened on what should otherwise have been an exceptional bottle. Luck of the draw, we all lose sometimes. :(
So I did both of these things, actually. Not because I was testing to see how dumb (but now that I know, will be fun to try!), but more with the curiousity of a deranged monkey. After giving the wine a stern talking to, I shook and swirled and shook, and the smell was quite powerful. And not good. Again, it was something like sharp rotty apple pulp. I then decanted it and periodically tested for almost three days (that's the deranged monkey part...as if there was some hope that the wine would suddenly, 48 hours later, reassert its heritage and transform into something great)
Thanks so much for all the insight & info, e. winemonger
This - the overwhelming nailpolish, perhaps acetone (not quite, but close) just happened to me with a '99 Cline single-vineyard Zin (I forget which one right now, but I think Live Oak). Truly revolting, which was a disappointment for a $28 bottle. I did consider running it through the mass spec to try to identify the culprit, but decided against it :)
: So I did both of these things, actually. Not because I was testing to : see how dumb (but now that I know, will be fun to try!), but more with : the curiousity of a deranged monkey. After giving the wine a stern : talking to, I shook and swirled and shook, and the smell was quite : powerful. And not good. Again, it was something like sharp rotty : apple pulp. I then decanted it and periodically tested for almost : three days (that's the deranged monkey part...as if there was some : hope that the wine would suddenly, 48 hours later, reassert its : heritage and transform into something great)
I stand corrected on the gender, Ms. Monger. If you're getting a 'rotten' smell from the wine then maybe the bottle is corked? "Rotten apple pulp" is close to the telltale TCA cork contamination smell of 'musty cardboard or newsprint', so that is another possibility, which - in that case - IS probably all you would smell. But keep in mind that southern Rhones (and I am talking about the good ones, such as yours, Chave or Chapoutier blanc, etc.), do often go through a stage in their life when they will reveal nothing, or if anything, often unpleasantness (such as nail polish to an extreme). This tends to happen a few years after bottling to about 10 years, then then become transformed by age into a different sort of wine altogether. So I would say one of these two things has happened.
See, now this is the kind of information that would have been truly useful on a back label! A giant DO NOT DRINK ME NOW, FOOL. I did read what I could, I thought I was on top of things....alas, a potentially fine bottle wasted.
] wrote: ] ] > I stand corrected on the gender, Ms. Monger. If you're getting a ] > 'rotten' smell from the wine then maybe the bottle is corked? ] > "Rotten apple pulp" is close to the telltale TCA cork ] > contamination smell of 'musty cardboard or newsprint', so that ] > is another possibility, which - in that case - IS probably all ] > you would smell. ] ] Sorry, totally wrong. A smell of rotten apple pulps has nothing to ] do with TCA, but is the tell-tale sign of an oxidized wine, the ] stronger, the more. ] ] It's easy to reproduce: Take a glass of wine and keep it for a ] week or two, preferably in the sunshine (next to a window). You ] will recognize the smell immediately. ]
Thank you Michael! This is what I was trying to say before. This wine does not sound corked, nor dumb. It just sounds like oxydized, period.
Sorry, totally wrong. A smell of rotten apple pulps has nothing to do with TCA, but is the tell-tale sign of an oxidized wine, the stronger, the more.
It's easy to reproduce: Take a glass of wine and keep it for a week or two, preferably in the sunshine (next to a window). You will recognize the smell immediately.
:> I stand corrected on the gender, Ms. Monger. If you're getting a :> 'rotten' smell from the wine then maybe the bottle is corked? :> "Rotten apple pulp" is close to the telltale TCA cork :> contamination smell of 'musty cardboard or newsprint', so that :> is another possibility, which - in that case - IS probably all :> you would smell.
: Sorry, totally wrong. A smell of rotten apple pulps has nothing to : do with TCA, but is the tell-tale sign of an oxidized wine, the : stronger, the more.
: It's easy to reproduce: Take a glass of wine and keep it for a : week or two, preferably in the sunshine (next to a window). You : will recognize the smell immediately.
Michael, of course, you are probably correct, but when I smell oxidised wines I smell oxidised wine and I don't necessarily equate that smell to rotten apple pulp. When I think of apple pulp, I'm thinking here of the pressings of apples to make cider that are left in the rain and heat which to me take on a certain musty quality which made me think of TCA.
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