French Plonk?

I don't know about in England, but in the USA it does seem that there is an awful lot of French plonk in the low price ranges. I had a really good white from the Maconaisse today for $11 US, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Mostly, if the bottle is under $30 US I've learned not to expect much.

Dimitri

Thanks for your input. It seems that because I have had an infection, I am accused by some at home of having an unreliable pallete. They agree the wine was poor but not undrinkable.

This wine comes from the area where I live. Vin de Pays is a "lower" appellation than AOC, but this does not automatically mean "bad".

Problem with my area is that despite an enormous potential, unlike Languedoc there has been little attempt at pushing quality, and so the bulk of the production, whether it is AOC or Von de Pays, is mediocre. There are some good wines in Provence, and even exceptionally good ones, I am thinking of some Bandol domaines, and a few around the Baux area.

I have never heard of Gypiere, it probably only sell for export, there are many places like that, and they tend to give France and Provence a bad name. I have no idea what second release may mean.

France is one of the places in Europe where you CAN find many excellent wines under ten pounds, and many excellent ones even under 5 pounds, but you will not find them outside France. I often travel to Italy and I am always amazed at how much cheaper good wine can be in France, whereas in Italy price inflation has driven all drinkable wines above the 15 Euro mark.

Thanks to the EU, you can of course head over here and stock up on those low priced little gems. Take the Eurostar and go visit a couple of the specialist wine stores in Paris, not the well known ones but the tiny boutiques run by people that are clued into what is still affordable and great tasting.

Best

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Vin de Pays wines can be very, very good, depending on who makes them. Like anything else. There are a lot of terrible AOC wines made, too. This reminds me of some people who assume that a film will be good strictly because it's a French film. True, some of the best are French films, but many porkers are also released there.

snip

Mark, I don't think that he is wrong.

France has its fair share of plonk ALONG WITH every other country at that price range.

I wish you could buy first growths for $30 and we would not be having this issue.

Thanks for the advice. I no longer live in Berkeley. I am familiar with Kermit Lynch, but not the others. However, my comment stands based on my experience. If I go to a tasting of cheaper French wines from lesser appellations like the Loire, Bandol, or Languedoc in the $10-25 range I will inevitably find one or two that I enjoy. However, that is not a good ratio when tasting, say, eight wines.

As someone else said, there is a lot of plonk in that price range from the USA, Italy, and Australia also. However, I am far more likely to find a wine I like for $15 if it is from California than if it is from France. It may just be a function of the exchange rate and/or shipping costs.

Dimitri

Dick, Mark certainly never denied there's an ocean of plonk from France. But I'd agree with him that I find it easier to find French or Italian wines on the low-end that I like that CA. To me $20 is the magic mark for California- choices open up there. I'm not denying the QPR of the Rex Goliath PN and a few others, but few is the operative work. Once we're in the $20's we start looking at the Ridge single vineyards, various Syrahs, etc. But under $20 the US market is thin.

For France, this would be my annotations to Mark's under $20 list: White: '02 Bourgognes from good producers (I've enjoyed Javiller, Cote Chalonnaise and Cote Maconnais (the '02 Drouhin Macon is great for $7 if you can find it). '02 Bourgogne Aligote from good producers (Lafarge, de Villaine) '02 Chablis (Brocard, Moreau, or just about any good producer's straight Chablis AC, or for just under $20 the Brocard or Savary 1ers) Loire: '02 Muscadet (Pepiere, Luneau-Papin) '02 Sancerre, Pouilly-Fum鬠Menetou-Salon (Thomas-Labaille, Pelle, etc) '02 Montlouis (Deletang, Chidaine) I left off '02 Vouvray as only ones I've had are the excellent Huets, which are more than $20. I'd add the Clos Roche Blanche Touraine if you can find '02.

I personally enjoy Trimbach's base Riesling and Gewurz, but some find them too austere. Lots of other good Alsace producers.

Red: '01 Cotes du Rhone (d'Andezon is very good for $10, or Coudelet de Beaucastel if you can find under $20). '02 Bourgogne (Lafarge, Bachelet, Sylvie Esmonin, Chevillon, d'Angerville) or wines from outlying villages like Marsannay, Santenay, or Savigny (try Pavelot, Girardin, Bruno Clair, Bize, Ecard) '02 Cru Beaujolais (Coudert/Roillete Fleurie rules! Plus Brun/Terres Dorres, Lapierre) '01 & '00 Bordeaux from satellites such as Cotes de Castillon, Fronsac, Lalande de Pomerol- my current fave is the '01 Cap de Faugeres Another personal favorite is the Les Heretiques from Andre Iche, a VdP d'Oc at $7-8, or his Minervois at $9-10. I also like red Loires, and '02s were good and it sounds like many '03s too. Look for producers like Breton or Olga Raffault.

As noted, there's a lot of plonk out there. Offhand, I can't think of any region in the world that isn't 50% plonk in the under-$20 range. But learning producers you like is the key.

"DaleW" wrote in news:1113250293.037568.20280 @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

This is the key. If I try to buy cheaper Australian or California wines, I invariably dislike them (withthe excpetion of Bonny Doon), but I know which wines and priducers, negociants and importers, I like from France and Italy and am rarely disappointed. If my New World experience and tastes were up to the standards of others here, I would probably find my mileage to be different.

I am afraid to strongly disagree with two very knowledgeable posters, but I find most Chablis to be quite awful, even at the premier cru level. I have said this here before, but I pretty much only find the wines of the more famous producers like Raveneau and Dauvissat drinkable.

Sure, sauvignon blanc is a cheap grape. However, in the US we can also get some very good sauvignon blancs for < $20. Australia and New Zealand have also flooded the market with them. It's like saying that you can find lots of good CA zinfandel cheaply. It's a cheap grape. Of course you can.

I do not like this either (Trimbach).

Not a big fan of most Beaujolais.

Of course everyone has their own tastes. In general, I can assume without tasting that a cheap French wine is plonk. In fact, my girlfriend made up a whole section in my wine-tasting notebook which she labeled "French Swill" since so much of it is. That is not to say that American plonk of the sort like "Mondavi Coastal" is good wine. However, given a choice between a California wine I've never had before and an unknown French wine for $15 I'll always choose the American wine before tasting. I have verified with blind tastings that my palette is just not tuned to like French plonk. Perhaps it is because even cheap California wine has some intense fruit in it, whereas lots of cheap French wine tastes overwatered.

High-end French producers like Ramonet score well alongside high-end California producers like Peter Michael. However, when you start to get into the lower price ranges I feel that more often than not the American wine will be the better of its counterpart. A pinot like Patricia Green for $18 cannot be bettered by its French counterpart in the same price range, IMO. In fact, I usually don't even bother with the village wines, because the premier cru wines are so much better for just a bit more money. To me, the difference between most AOC village wine (forget vin de pays entirely) and premier cru is staggering.

That is not to say that cheap French wine is all bad. Quite a lot of it is good. However, I definitely find a lot of CA wine I like in the $15-30 range and not much French wine I like at all in that range. Once you go over that $30 mark then the field changes significantly, because that's when you start getting into the premier crus (in Burgundy) and the better wines in places like the Rhone, Condrieu, Alsace, and even Champagne. Champagne is a good example, actually, because I think California sparkling producers completely destroy anything produced in France in the $10-20 range but at that point and beyond the French wine is the only wine worth buying.

Dimitri

I have had plonk from all counties at all prices.

But here in Charlotte, NC it is hard to find French wines I typically buy them when traveling out of state or in Chapel Hill , NC. However at A southern seasons you find no French Plonk but thats due to the fact most is very good classified wines.

I think since you live in NYC and Mark is now in California you guys are spoiled.

No doubt there are excellent french wines in the under $20. I like a Rodet Rully-red or while under $20....but good luck getting them here at that price or available often.

Rarely do I find wines from California under $30 to my liking. French around $50 +. Oregon $25+for PN.

Austrailia, Chili and Argentina have the best drinking wines under $20 in my opinion.

Sorry to disagree.

That said there is no competition for a good Burg or top growth bordeaux...good or bad year the only difference is when they peak. :-)

For France, this would be my annotations to Mark's under $20 list: White: '02 Bourgognes from good producers (I've enjoyed Javiller, Cote Chalonnaise and Cote Maconnais (the '02 Drouhin Macon is great for $7 if you can find it). '02 Bourgogne Aligote from good producers (Lafarge, de Villaine) '02 Chablis (Brocard, Moreau, or just about any good producer's straight Chablis AC, or for just under $20 the Brocard or Savary 1ers) Loire: '02 Muscadet (Pepiere, Luneau-Papin) '02 Sancerre, Pouilly-Fum?Menetou-Salon (Thomas-Labaille, Pelle, etc) '02 Montlouis (Deletang, Chidaine) I left off '02 Vouvray as only ones I've had are the excellent Huets, which are more than $20. I'd add the Clos Roche Blanche Touraine if you can find '02.

I personally enjoy Trimbach's base Riesling and Gewurz, but some find them too austere. Lots of other good Alsace producers.

Red: '01 Cotes du Rhone (d'Andezon is very good for $10, or Coudelet de Beaucastel if you can find under $20). '02 Bourgogne (Lafarge, Bachelet, Sylvie Esmonin, Chevillon, d'Angerville) or wines from outlying villages like Marsannay, Santenay, or Savigny (try Pavelot, Girardin, Bruno Clair, Bize, Ecard) '02 Cru Beaujolais (Coudert/Roillete Fleurie rules! Plus Brun/Terres Dorres, Lapierre) '01 & '00 Bordeaux from satellites such as Cotes de Castillon, Fronsac, Lalande de Pomerol- my current fave is the '01 Cap de Faugeres Another personal favorite is the Les Heretiques from Andre Iche, a VdP d'Oc at $7-8, or his Minervois at $9-10. I also like red Loires, and '02s were good and it sounds like many '03s too. Look for producers like Breton or Olga Raffault.

As noted, there's a lot of plonk out there. Offhand, I can't think of any region in the world that isn't 50% plonk in the under-$20 range. But learning producers you like is the key.

I agree with Mark on that, except I'd halve that price. There are nice cru bourgeois 2000 Bordeaux in the ~$15 price range if you know where to shop. There are even some nice Burgundies for under $25 - but I'll admit that you need to be well informed to make a good selection.

IME, it's actually far easier to

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say _that_! I'd say that quality wise in that price range the value is close to equal between France and California. Of course Mark's view is from an East Coast perspective, so that may account for the difference in perception.

Tom S

East Coast perspective???? Howzat, Tom? Aside from my 5 years in grad school in NYC, I've spent no time at all on the East Coast. Perhaps you mean Midwest perspective? Though I'd still probably dispute that since the 15 years I've lived in Indiana pale before the 26 years I've lived in CA. No, I am Californicated through and through, but that doesn't stop me from calling a spade a spade -- and in this case I cannot help but lament the lack of quality in CA wine retailing for under $20. Where are the CalCabs that compete directly with B'dx from the Satellite appellations? Where are the light reds from CA that compete with Beaujolais? Where are the Chardonnays that compete price-wise with Chablis, the Cote Chalonnaise and Cote Maconnais? Where are the Pinots that compete with the Cote Chalonnaise? Where are the Zins that compete with wines from the Languedoc and the Cotes du Rhone?

Sure, there are some great values to be found in CA, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Whereas in the regions I cite above you have dozens or even more quality producers making wines of character that retail for under $20 (including shipping costs), when I stroll among the "fighting varietals" in Safeway's aisles, I am singularly unimpressed. For every HRM Rex Goliath or Bogle you have 20 Woodbridge, Turning Leaf and Vendange brands that offer bland stuff with little to no varietal character. When you factor in the bargain wines arriving from Australia, NZ, S. America and Spain, CA looks even worse by comparison.

When I started buying wine, I could get Caymus Cab for $9 a bottle, Ridge Zins for $4-5, etc -- and they were my "splurge" wines. I still buy some of my favorite CA wines on a regular basis, but in truth their numbers have dwindled as so many producers have priced themselves out of my cellar. Even the Rhone Rangers, who used to be a reliable source of reasonably priced wines, have become too pricey to compete with the wines they try to emulate.

So much for my rant, Mark Lipton

Well, if you are buying your wines at Safeway then perhaps that is part of the problem? One of my favorite wineries is Tablas Creek and they have many offerings at under $20/bottle and most under $30/bottle. For instance, right now I can buy the 2002 Rousanne for $16. There are a *lot* of good zins at under $20, including Ravenswood and Ridge Coast Range. For pinot, pinot blanc, and chardonnay, I like Jim Clendenen's Au Bon Climat wines. Some of the Hitching Post pinots are also under $30. Another favorite of mine, Longoria, has 14 of their 18 offerings priced under $30, with most of those under $20.

Wild Horse (when Ken Volk owned it) used to also make a bevy of good wines under $20. So do Qupe, Beckmen, and Curtis. If you increase the ceiling to $30 then you get a host of good wines from Ojai Vineyard, Jaffurs, Rombauer, Turley, Justin, and even biggies like Merryvale. From Oregon, you can find wines like A to Z, Patricia Green, Raptor Ridge, and Brick House that I find better than anything in the same price range from Burgundy. One thing I admit is that there is not a good cab, merlot, or meritage in that range, but that's okay.

You can certainly find good wine from France for $30 and under, but I find that it is much more hit-or-miss until you break that $30 mark. Same with Italy. For better values I look to Spain and California.

Dimitri

Mike,

You just brought up an interesting point. If I were to fly over to Paris from, say, California, where would I go in Paris (or anywhere else) to get good deals these days. With the Euro clobbering the dollar, and shipping back to the west coast cutting into the savings, what are the best option?

JJ