How to store bottles with a Stelvin screwcap?

This is the same logic inconsistency I encounter when talking to cork industry people. Bottle variation in 99.9% can be attributed to the cork. And if a bottle of the same provenance is "not as good" as another one, the bottle *is* tainted, even if there is no obvious sign of TCA. Dont forget the half dozen of other substances that can taint the wine, don't forget fruit scalping, and please get random oxidation into that count.

Btw, there seems to be a solution: "DIAM" agglomerate corks, made from cork powder treated with hypercrital CO2. It might appeal to you that they are also available for champagne bottles; in this larger format their name is "MYTIK".

M.

Hello Michael,

I humbly retract if there is an error in my math:

$50,000 investment / ($20/returned bottle) / (10% bottle failure) / (1% return rate on failed bottles) = 2.5 million bottles

Again, this assumes that only 1% of failed bottles are actually returned back to the winery. I would be surprised if it were higher, considering that the general public is barely aware of the phenomenon at all. Which sparks a side question which I find interesting: what percentage of bottles which you have purchased have you returned to the store due to cork failure? Personally, supposing I've purchased 1,000 bottles so far, I've actually only /returned/ three to the seller for a refund due to cork failure.

My head is spinning terribly (I cought a cold), can't argue about maths right now, but up there it seems that recovery level ist stated at 2,500 bottles. If only 1% of these are returned, that would mean a factor of 100, so 250,000 bottles. I have no idea where is the fault in reasoning.

Interesting question, I guess only once, 20 years ago, but this has to do with the fact that I have bought only some five or six cases of wine within the past 20 or so years, for the simple reason that I taste a solid four figure number of wines a year professionally. That means that back-up bottles make up for my everyday drinking.

Otoh, the number of bottles sent back in restaurants over the last

30 years surely must besomewhere in the three digit range.

M.

Hello Michael,

I see. I was talking about 2.5 million total bottles produced, while you are talking about 250,000 failed bottles produced.

Any idea what percentage that is? I'm guessing that your return rate is at least ten times that of the average consumer, considering your keen awareness of the problem.

Sorry, no.

Most certainly, probably even higher.

M.

It would be, except for one little thing: Market Acceptance

Although _we_ are, most of the rest of the world just isn't ready to shell out $$$$/???? for a bottle of fine wine with a screw cap. That's a real show stopper for too many wine afficionados. There is progress, but public perception is a really big thing and doesn't turn on a dime.

Tom S

Sorry I don't think 5-10% TCA taint is grossly overstated at all, it certainly accords with my figures. And it's disgraceful that winemakers and cork producers have got away with such an imposition on the public for so long. Imagine if another preserved foodstuff - eg cheese - suffered regularly from up to 10% taint - there would be an international outcry. Cheers! Martin

I am not justifying TCA. I remain unconvinced that most bad or tainted wine is simply due to TCA in corks. This is in light of all the issues from Montelena and BV in California that have had TCA issues not from cork.

Cork is an issue but I feel this is getting hyped so that large wineries can make the move and if they produce millions of cases, a la Constilllation or Gallo they can make additional $2.00 per case produced. Thats a lot of money.

I hadn't heard about the issues from Montalena and BV. As far I knew, all TCA came from corks.

But if there are other sources of TCA besides corks, wouldn't you expect to see some "corked" wines in bottles with Stelvin closures? Have you run into any such? I haven't.

I have not run into TCA issues under stelvin but I think that might be more of an issue of critical mass. So few California producers are using Stelvin.

1997 Plumpjack Cab did offer a cork and a stelvin for same year. I tried the wines and preferred the Cork better. I don't think they age the same but I have no idea if 10 years from now I would prefer the Stelvin had I waited. Just don't know.

That said I am fairly sure if Montelena and BV both used stelvin when they had their issue it would have been Stelvin with TCA.

Just not enough out there.

Dick, I have said more than once, and I repeat it again, maybe you can try to get it: When we had 30 to 40 percent cork taint in our Bordeaux 1995 tasting one year ago, these were taints *immediately confirmed by a better back-up bottle from the same source*, i.e. the chateau.

Montelena and BV were issues where *whole batches* were TCA tainted.

I don't think that it's difficult to understand.

Sorry, totally wrong. It's the high-end tainted wine that hurts most, not the cheapos. The problem is heavy $$$ going down the drain, not what Gallo stoppers its plonk with.

M.

Simply put, I disagree with your assessment. I think you might be jumping to conclusions.

While whole batches were supposedly exposed I have had and enjoyed the 1997 BV Georges that was effected. It was outstanding. I have indeed had 1 of

9 bottles that was obviously tainted. I therefore would state the backup wine for this would have had a good chance of being good.

I think you are buying the hype on Stelven similar to the way people here came up with evidence that there are WMD's in Iraq.

I am sorry but I do disagree with you on your conclusions. If the wine industry moves to Stelvin it likely will be that their propaganda on TCA and cork wins out and they then can save $2.00 per case. IMHO.

So you think people moving to screw caps over here in Austria do so because they are bought by Gallo, Constellation, and Stelvin?

Never heard a weirder conspiracy theory in my life.

Sorry Dick, but EOD from my part.

M.

Good that I get the last word.

Wine industry like all others are motivated by profit. $2.00 per case is a lot of $$$ is it is on all cases sold from a winery. You figure that it is a small part of the economic profit but trust me, I am a food manufacturer and you do look at each component cost.

If enough consumers want Stelvin, $2.00 per case is good enough reason to try to do it. But if there are traditionalist that would not move away from cork, then anyone moving to Stelvin would risk losing market share and have to weigh that cost of losing business agains the savings from a Stelvin.

I am sorry but it is in Stelvins interest to slam Cork all the time.

I am sure that Montelena or BV would have had the same TCA issues had the wine been under Stelvin. And my point to you was that I have had the BV

1997 Georges that is supposed to be TCA inflicted and according to the winery it did NOT effect all bottles. It was somehow selective.

So take you superior attitude and stick it where it belongs.

"Richard Neidich" wrote...............

Of course it is, Dick - just as cork producers try to understate the adverse effects of cork. (And I am not talking solely about TCA contamination)

Dick, cork is doomed - maybe not in the next year, or even the next decade, but come the day when cork will be regarded as the inferior, ancient technology.

The revolution has started - yes, you traditionalists will sit in your rocking chairs, bleating about the good-old-days - while enjoying a charming chardonnay; a sensational sauvignon; a ravishing riesling; perfect pinot or beautifully balanced Bordeaux bottled under anything as unpredictable as a piece of tree bark which has been treated with god-knows-what chemicals to try and keep it taint-free.

You know Dick, it must take you ages to get to work on that old horse and cart.

I know tradition has its place (in the 1800s ;-) but we do live in an age of progress !!!!

Viva la 21st century!!!!!!!!!!

Lord,

Sorry for my belligerence in advance but I drive a new Audi A6 with Bluetooth technology package. I can get in and out without using my key and start car without as well. Its cool stuff.

But before swallowing the cool aid that Stelvin is the answer to TCA I am not sure that is the only answer. I am not sure that if I bought Montelena and BV that the TCA issue would have been resolved if they used stelvin. An honest assemenent there would also state that not all 1997 BV Georges De latour-there reserve wine was affected yet it was all in same building they had the problem and in the same year.

I cannot state more simply enough there is not enough evidence to support that Stelvin is the answer to the real issues. I do not state TCA is not an issue.

I find you personal style of attack wrong. I simply disagree at this point on the actual percentages of cork failure and TCA taint from Cork. You cannot and have not proved me to be wrong.

Try again.

Dick, Given what you wrote to Michael Pronay this very day, I find your statement above to be hypocritical in the extreme. St. H.'s response was made in jest, albeit at your expense. Your humor has often been misinterpreted -- why not do him the same favor? Your intemperate reply to Mr. Pronay, who has the very firsthand experience with Stelvin-sealed wines that you claim to want to see, had no such humorous content and was indeed merely belligerent.

Now, on to a few issues:

1. You claim that not all BV and Montelena wines tasted corked to you. There are several possible answers: a. You aren't very sensitive to TCA, so only the worst examples seemed corked to you b. The source of the TCA was contaminated barrels and not all of them had it (nor in the same quantity) c. Everyone but you is a fool or a liar ;-)

1. You think that much of the groundswell for screwcaps is either Stelvin hype or economical in origin. Economy certainly plays a role: vintners have to eat the cost of corked wines returned to them. If in your business you were faced with a 5-10% return rate for faulty product, wouldn't you seek a different solution? Likewise, as a consumer, I am all for screwcaps, crown caps, bags-in-boxes, whatever it takes to remove TCA from wine. Last weekend, I opened a corked bottle of '88 Chevillon Vaucrains that Jean bought at auction last year. Who do we return it to? The auction house? Chevillon? Nope. *We* eat the cost of a bottle that cost ~. I'd estimate that I lost several hundred dollars to corked, aged wines last year. Bring on the alternate closures!

2. You think that cork gets blamed for faults with other origins. I agree, but that doesn't make the problems associated with corks any less real. I know TCA when I smell it, and 5-10% is a minimum estimate of the fraction of corked bottles I encounter. I recently had to return a corked bottle at a restaurant, only to get a second corked bottle in return. The incidence of large-scale contamination of wineries is rare: BV, Montelena and Michel Mangnien are the only three that I recall hearing of. Moreover, most observers agree that the problem is getting worse. If we get rid of it, we can then focus our efforts on heat damage and other problems.

1. We both agree that the aging of vins de garde under Stelvin is an issue, but let's make the change for the other 95% of wine and enjoy them while we await the results of long-term aging tests.

Mark Lipton

Mark Lipton wrote in news:du54mr$ilt$1 @mailhub227.itcs.purdue.edu:

And reducing the amount of cork used will make for the remaining cork to be of higher quality as not so many trees will be forced to produce and the resultant cork will be denser and more stable another win for Stelvin.