How to store bottles with a Stelvin screwcap?

So maybe it's really a plot by the bookshelf manufacturers to seize the market for Stelvin-compatible wine racks? :P

Mark Lipton

"Richard Neidich" wrote ...........

(Richard - he writes in admonishing tone!!!!!)

My title was bestowed upon me by a certain Franco-anglo-hungarophile, whose now spasmodic presence here is noted (with regret!!!)

As such, you can address me as "Milord" or "Your Lordship". I must confess to answering to "Oi! SfB" on the odd occasion, though.

;-)))))

OK formalities aside, you wrote.....

No offence intended (on your part) - none taken, on mine!

You know, I am disappointed.

I took you as a 1914 Stutz Bearcat type of guy - you know, the one where the driver saw the road ahead through a little monocle-like windshield.

Sound like anyone you know? ;-)))))

And I am not saying that Stelvin is the *only* answer - but it sure as hell beats the hammering my wallet has received over the years, spending my hard earned $$$ on spoiled wines, with little or no recourse.

Personally, I am totally of an open mind - I don't give diddly squat about the "tradition-of-cork"; but I defend your right to be in love with such an inefficient, outdated closure.

And perhaps, one day, you will spend $50 per bottle on a case of wine, and find that 50% are spoiled (yes! it has happened to me - I was fortunate, I purchased ex-winery and returned them).

The winery (Kumeu River) now bottles 100% under Screwcap - white and red - standard and premium wines.

With the greatest of respect Dick, the *main* issue with cork is TCA contamination - yes, as Michael Pronay writes, there *are* others like fruit scalping etc.

Oh fiddled-de-dee. Invading Iraq is an attack gone wrong! Now don't start getting all sensitive on me - next thing you will be telling me that you are a SNAG who cried during Brokeback Mountain! ;-)))

Hey, by all means argue the pros and cons of cork v Stelvin - that what we do on AFW.

And there will always be discagreements and misunderstandings based on where we live and what language we speak.

Dick, I do believe that you and I are very similar. As Prof. Lipton has commented, us humans have varying sensitivities to TCA.

When Ian Hoare and Mark toured NZ here a couple years ago, we called in to a winery in Martinborough whose Pinot Noir is very highly regarded.

When presented with their top PN, Mark immediately exclaimed "corked" to which both Ian and I said "really - are you sure?"

Mark said "Absolutely" - to us, the wine seemed to be simply lacking fruit, and not showing particularly well - and the assistant behind the counter said "Um, no, this wine is not corked"

After a couple minutes or so the owner/winemaker happened to come by, and upon being asked for his opinion, immediately confirmed Mark's diagnosis.

That was rather a defining moment, for both Ian and myself.

We both knew then that wines which we had previously considered as "not showing well" or "lacking fruit" may well have been "corked".

We just didn't know it.

Whether you agree or disagree as to the % of wines subject to cork failure and TCA contamination is not a matter of right or wrong.

Here in NZ we have a statute in the books called The Consumers Guarantee Act.

Simply put, is says that a consumer has every right to assume that any item sold/purchases fulfils the purpose for which it is intended.

It is the law.

So, to conclude this dialogue, let me put it this way - I don't give a damn what sort of closure a winemaker chooses - so long as it has no adverse effect on the contents, and my enjoyment. --

st.helier

Further to my comments...........

Sorry to respond to my own post, but, I have just taken 5 minutes to confirm something I recall reading in a newsletter from Ata Rangi Wines (the winery we visited) and got this from their website.

Summer Newsletter (04/05) "It's not surprising that the majority of top award-winning wines are now sealed with screwcaps, a closure we favour.

All the wines in this release are under screwcap.

There's simply no other industry that can or will tolerate the level of product failure we have all endured with cork over recent years.

Following the installation of a state-of-the-art line at the local bottling plant, we're now delighted to be able to offer consistently excellent wines which we know will reach you alive and full of flavour."

Clive Paton - Ata Rangi Wines, Martinborough, NZ

Mark,

I have a couple cases of BV 1997 that were supposedly corked. I did find some bottles but not the entire batch. One bottle of the 9 was obvious TCA.

8 of the others were excellent. The winery indicated it did not affect all from the same room. I don't believe it was in the barrels but I never pushed for an exact answer. Articles indicated it was in the racking I think.

M. Pronay is an expert no doubt. But as a food manufacture I can tell you first hand that not all issues of packaging are what they appear to be. The answer is one of these, trust me Stelvin is better. Perhaps it is. But I have not witnessed it and any TCA contaminated wines I had from BV were not from the Cork according to BV but a problem in the wine room with racking or something like that. I assume the same would exist under stelvin.

You are a scientist and know without a proper test and control group you cannot really get accurate numbers. To make statement that "I have had more TCA wines that the bottles were corked vs. Stelvin" could also be that far more wines are packaged with cork. Imaging less than 10% in the USA are alternative of any type. But I do not have stats to back that up. But if 9 out of 10 are cork and there are BV or Montelena type issues -Not Cork...you would still get more wines from Cork with TCA than Stelvin.

I find this group fairly intolerant of the diverse opinion on this issue. I think that Cork will likely one day be less used but that will not be the end of TCA issues at wineries.

I have no issue with Lord Helliers comments on Horse and Buggy but I am not anti progress. I just think before you move forward on what might be and likely is an economic issue ask yourself this....would there be this much discussion from wineries if stelvin cost 2x the cost of cork...

Finally, one other thing, I was told in Europe and most places here that most wineries do not take back wine due to TCA unless they had known issues like BV and Montelena. I think I remember a thread a couple years ago on that. Therefore the wineries really don't have that cost you assert exist with cork failure.

respectfully,

me.

anip

Saint -Lord,

I do agree with your last statement.

Hi Joe - I agree with you concerning old bottles - in these I expect to find and even enjoy characteristics associated with ageing. And sometimes an older wine will open with a whiff of 'bottle stink' that does dissipate some time after opening or with decanting. But, I have yet to find a corked wine that improved or lost its cork taint with aeration.

Cheers! Martin

Indeed, Martin. In my experience, corked wines almost always get corkier upon aeration. Wines that one might suspect are corked are indisputably musty after a few hours open.

Mark Lipton

Hellier wrote.

Well in the USA we have an old latin phrase "Caveat Emptor."

Simply translated---"Let the buyer beware."

I don't think there is any requirement for a winery to take back any bad bottles. Some do simply because they are a class act and want to keep their consumer and reputation. BV of Rutherford was excellent when I contacted them. The article on BV's TCA issues broke shortly after I purchased my 2 cases of 1997. When I contacted them they stated any that I had a problem with they would refund from the release price or the purchase price. If receipt not available just return bottle emptied and they would give the release retail price.

I am sorry I have not seen Brokeback mountain. It is not allowed to play in the city I live in by law.:-)

"Richard Neidich" wrote ............

Yup - here too.

So let us consider this scenario.

I go to Fictitious Vineyards winery - who bottle under cork.

I taste their Perfectus Pinot Noir, and like what I see, err, taste.

I ask the question "Have you had a problem with cork taint?" to which the answer is either a vehement "No" or even "Oh yes, a little" - to which I ask "Do you offer any sort of warranty that the contents of any bottle I purchase is 100%?"

If I like what I here, I purchase.

But what if I purchase at Willies Wines in West Wyoming?

Sales clerk, when faced with the same questions says "I have no idea - and by the way, you purchase at buyers risk!"

I guess that is the difference between our two systems.

Down here, a consumer has the protection of strong consumer law - in the US one would sue for a couple of million for loss of enjoyment of life.

As related, in NZ there IS this requirement when any product is sold to the consumer.

I know that when I was retailing wine, I would offer a money back guarantee if a customer chose a wine which proved to be faulty, and a money back guarantee for whatever reason, if I recommended a wine which did not meet the expectation of the customer - yes, even if they simply didn't like it!!!

Result - a whole pile of very happy customers - and guess what - I replaced quite a lot of corked wine, but never one which I recommended.

Please, please tell me you are joking, Dick. Whatever happened to freedom of speech guaranteed under the nth amendment?

The same holds true for the EU, btw.

Fitz Hasselbach of Gunderloch told me three years ago that he offered certain wines under cork and screw top - but told the purchaser that when his choice was cork, he wouldn't take back anything. When I told him that this wouldn't hold when the buyer was a consumer, he shrugged his shoulders: "Well, then he'll sue me for three bottles, and he'll win."

M.

Salut/Hi Tom S,

le/on Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:58:37 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

This is a good point. However, I sincerely believe that you have to outface the Neidichs of this world and do what you know to be right - for the wine.

This question of closures is a very meta-stable one. At the moment, many winemakers (and I'm sorry but you're in the "wrong" camp in my eyes) aren't prepared to antagonise the conservatives, so you don't know how many screwcap people don't buy _because_ you still stick to cork. But I believe that it really won't take much longer before public perception switches, and then nearly ALL the best winemakers will flip across and it will be as unthinkable (for all except the Niedichs and some people who are incapable of accepting change) to sell a wine under cork as it was for them to sell under Stelvin 10 years ago.

By the way, surely you don't HAVE to buy a screwcap bottling line, aren't there mobile bottling plants that you can ask to come and bottle your production? At least that's the case in many parts of Europe. You could continue to bottle yourself under cork and farm out the Stelvin.

ATB Ian