(in re Fat Duck) Riesling question

OK, the good news- the Maximer Grunhaus/Von Schubert estate does a very good job from Qba to Spatlesen (not sure I've had an Auslese or above).

the bad news- I'm not a huge fan of '99 MSRs.

more good news- WS gave this a 91:

more bad news- the Fat Duck price is outrageous, this seems to be available several places in US for less than $30.

"DaleW" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

Hi Dale, thanks. I paid US $19.99 here in Pennsylvania, when I saw the Fat Duck price, I almost fainted! Riesling continues to be a closed book to me, I just haven't had that special bottle yet... I'll probably try it this weekend, and perhaps pick up another bottle for my friend from Germany when he comes to visit...

Cheers! d.

"enoavidh" skrev i melding news:Xns972C5FF8189A2enoavidhyahoocom@136.142.185.40...

Ouch... 150GBP? The going price at the winery was something like 13Euros... Insane pricing at the FD I'd say... Anders

enoavidh wrote on Wed, 14 Dec 2005 21:47:01 +0000 (UTC):

??>> OK, the good news- the Maximer Grunhaus/Von Schubert ??>> estate does a very good job from Qba to Spatlesen (not ??>> sure I've had an Auslese or above). ??>>

??>> the bad news- I'm not a huge fan of '99 MSRs. ??>>

??>> more good news- WS gave this a 91: ??>>

??>> more bad news- the Fat Duck price is outrageous, this ??>> seems to be available several places in US for less than ??>> $30. ??>>

e> Hi Dale, thanks. I paid US $19.99 here in Pennsylvania, e> when I saw the Fat Duck price, I almost fainted! e> Riesling continues to be a closed book to me, I just haven't e> had that special bottle yet... e> I'll probably try it this weekend, and perhaps pick up e> another bottle for my friend from Germany when he comes to e> visit...

Perhaps fortunately (or possibly sour grapes), I cannot consider eating at the Fat Duck for health reasons even if, truthfully, I am on the other side of the Atlantic and could not afford the place very often. One thing I am also not willing to do is keep dialing to make a reservation though I gather there is a phone that will do it automatically and flash a light when it finally connects. Is the rest of the wine list priced so obscenely?

James Silverton.

"James Silverton" wrote in news:AsadnXHf75WwBz3enZ2dnUVZ snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

Well...I still have a couple bottles of Malescot-St Exupery 98 (Fat Duck GBP 100.00) that I bought for USD 23.99 each, a couple of years ago...here in Pennsylvania...

There were just not very many others available here that I could compare...hmm. Weinbach Tokay Pinot Gris Cuvee Laurence 01 GBP 85.00, I could get my hands on a bottle here for USD 47.99, which would be GBP

Still, I'm not used to seeing wine that I actually own in such a place! Or any place! Cool!

(And I think I may have to try my hand at bacon & eggs ice cream ;) ) d ;)

After reading your and other comments concerning prices for wines at The Fat Duck, I looked at their wine list. I find it very lacking in variety of wines in all classes for a first class restaurant. Perhaps that is because the restaurant is fairly young, but older Bordeaux and such is easy to obtain at auction in London. The Burgundy list is very lacking in mature Burgundy. The red Bordeaux list has very few choices. It has a few first growths that are ready to drink, if you will pay what they ask. The selection of German and Austrian wines is exceedingly small. You can make up your own mind about prices they charge. I compared the restaurant price of some better wines with London auction prices as reported in the December 2005 Decanter. I had to divide the Decanter prices by 12, since they report by case lots. All prices are in UK Pounds. The auction price follows the restaurant price.

Mouton-Rothschild 1975 - 600, 57.5 (not a top Mouton); Mouton-Rothschild 1983 - 384, 89; Lafite-Rothschild 1985 - 500, 115; Ch Margaux 1982 - 1200, 302.5; Petrus 1982 - 4995, 1146;

Even if I had as much money as Bill Gates, I would not pay them several thousand Pounds of profit to serve a 1982 Petrus, even if the Queen of England poured the wine for me. The tasting menu in this restaurant is not for me. I would want to order carefully selected dishes a la carte. I would likely order some of the cheapest wine they had by the glass and then go to a London wine auction where I could buy several bottles, or in some cases a full case, of top wine for the price this restaurant charges for a single bottle.

After reading your and other comments concerning prices for wines at The Fat Duck, I looked at their wine list. I find it very lacking in variety of wines in all classes for a first class restaurant. Perhaps that is because the restaurant is fairly young, but older Bordeaux and such is easy to obtain at auction in London. The Burgundy list is very lacking in mature Burgundy. The red Bordeaux list has very few choices. It has a few first growths that are ready to drink, if you will pay what they ask. The selection of German and Austrian wines is exceedingly small. You can make up your own mind about prices they charge. I compared the restaurant price of some better wines with London auction prices as reported in the December 2005 Decanter. I had to divide the Decanter prices by 12, since they report by case lots. All prices are in UK Pounds. The auction price follows the restaurant price.

Mouton-Rothschild 1975 - 600, 57.5 (not a top Mouton); Mouton-Rothschild 1983 - 384, 89; Lafite-Rothschild 1985 - 500, 115; Ch Margaux 1982 - 1200, 302.5; Petrus 1982 - 4995, 1146;

Even if I had as much money as Bill Gates, I would not pay them several thousand Pounds of profit to serve a 1982 Petrus, even if the Queen of England poured the wine for me. The tasting menu in this restaurant is not for me. I would want to order carefully selected dishes a la carte. I would likely order some of the cheapest wine they had by the glass and then go to a London wine auction where I could buy several bottles, or in some cases a full case, of top wine for the price this restaurant charges for a single bottle.

rule of thumb in the uk is 300% ie wine that retails at £10, expect to see at £30 on a restaurant wine list. There are of course exceptions but....

see the exchange on the following links:

FWIW, at the Fat Duck, while I felt the food was underpriced (compared to what I have paid elsewhere, the quality and inventiveness were worth far more), the wine was over priced. I understand the need to cahrge more than the appropriate fraction of a bottle for the wine tasting menu, but we only realised later our table of 5 should have bought a bottle of each of the tasting wines, it would have been cheaper and we would have had far more wine!

pk

So El Bulli is actually a better deal (despite ny critiques) with a menu around 120 E and wines sold, it seems to me, on the basis of a fixed corkage on cost, like I said Grange des Peres white at 70 E, it sells at the domaine for 39 E (although none is for sale...).

From your description it seems that in fact the Overweight Canard does put some effort into matching the wine to the meal. El Buli does not care about the match.

Mike

That may be the best thing I've heard about El Bulli so far.

This, however, is unforgivable. How can a restaurant that aspires to be the best in the world ignore such an important aspect of fine dining? Do they reject the idea that wine is an integral part of the meal or just put less effort into the wine than they should?

Mark Lipton (not likely to dine at either establishment, so perhaps it's all academic -- but then so am I ;-))

Mark

A chef-genius should be coherent, if he decides to serve 3 dozen dishes with wild swings in flavour and balance instead of 3, then some thought should go into the accompanying drink. At El Bulli the sommelier is certainly competent and polite and helpful, but clearly he has no clue either, and so lets the customer choose. Most people tahat evening were drinking fancy tannic reds with a high price tag (most El Bulli-goers now are that kind, label drinkers we call them) that were incompatible with most of the dishes (too acid, too bitter, too fatty, too gooey).

cheers

Mike

Mike Tommasi wrote in news:40dkj4F19u1p8U1 @individual.net:

Hi,

While the wine list at El Bulli is not so outrageously priced as the examples mentioned about The Fat Duck, we should point out that it is way above the average mark-up of the good restaurants in Spain. Service is great, with Riedel Sommelier glasses, proper decanting and, probably, the best wine service I have ever had.

I was also shocked about the pulls being corked out of young tannic reds when, IMHO, not a single dish from our menu was suitable for that kind of wine. In our party of 4, we had a bottle of Pierre Gimmonet & Fils "Fleuron" 1996 priced at 50 euros (plus VAT), an excellent Domaine de la Sansonniere "La Lune" 2002 at about 45 euros and, when asking the sommelier for a third wine, he suggested a bottle of a 1997 white Burgundy (I do not remember the name). While it was about twice the price of the two previous wines we had ordered (something in the range of 70 or

Best,

S.

That's not a small detail, that's absolutely rude and totally "incompréhensible". A bottle of a wine the sommelier knows well that he considers "strange" is nothing else than admitting it has a cork problem and doing nothing.

Not my pair of shoes.

M.

I agree, I would have suggested to the sommelier a good place to put the bottle... ;-)

Mike Tommasi wrote in news:40fsmkF19tqohU1 @individual.net:

With that attitude it would probably fit as others have undoubtedly done so before.

You'd think he'd get the message (in a bottle)

Michael Pronay wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@pronay.com:

Well, it actually is in the context of a 4 hours experience. Probably the only bad thing of the night. He was no rude, he just pointed out that he had had bottles of this same wine that were better. Since the wine was not faulty, just a bit reduced, we did not think like returning it.

that's absolutely rude and totally

Do you really think it is a cork problem?

Anyway, my main concern with this bottle of wine is the fact that, while we were drinking wines in the 50eur range, he suggested a wine in the 70-75 price. That I feel more rude than the "dumb bottle issue".

Anyway, talking about mark-ups, I purchased bottles of La Lune at the winery that costed 12 euros, VAT included, and they are sold in Spain at 20 euros (VAT included). That makes a difference of about 30 euros to the price we paid at the restaurant.

In our humble opinion, there was no much of interest below 50 euros in their wine list. And we did not feel it was a GREAT wine list, though we managed to find two splendid wines at fair prices (we are great fans of Pierre Gimonnet, specially Le Fleuron 1996 and the astonishing Special Brut

Best,

S.

Hmmm...

Think? I am totally convinced, and he, the sommelier, should

Even worse. Unacceptable.

I guess wo agree to totally disagree on this point.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@pronay.com:

Especially bad, he took you out of your price range and then dumped an admittedly inferior, if not downright bad, bottle on you. The wine should have been compt at the very least,