Inexpensive Red for cellaring?

Great idea Steve.

As you describe yourself as a newbie I am sure you and your tastes will change during the course of your experiment. Don't know how much of a newbie you are, but make sure you understand the basics of how to recognise the various aromas, tastes and tannins before you start the experiment. If you do that and keep written notes that will help.

An alternative approach, or something you might like to do right away to see what to expect, is to compare different vintages of the same wine. Not quite the same of course as there will be vintage variations.

Salut/Hi Steve Dannenbaum,

le/on Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:22:14 -0700, tu disais/you said:-

Excellent idea, though I'd make the same caveat as young Slatcher. There's not THAT many wines that will change much over a 6 month period, AND will last for 6 years. Wines that evolve rapidly when young tend to have little tannin and acidity and often have a distinctly limited life (I'm thinking of wines like Beaujolais Nouveau, for example but the same is true of any "Vin Vert").

If I've read your question correctly, and if you're truly a newbie, then I'd expect your acuity to change over a number of years. Equally, it might be that your likes and dislikes will evolve. I've often read here of very experienced wine drinkers who admit that they started out enjoying wines that they regard as very mediocre nowadays. By the way, don't fall into the common trap of thinking that whites don't evolve and keep. We had a Meursault-Charmes 1992 last week, and it was as fresh as a daisy. (Meursault is a village in Burgundy and its wines are made from the Chardonnay grape with just the right amount of oak).

I'd be inclined therefore to get half a dozen reds and half a dozen whites, and taste every 6 months or every year. I don't know how much he sells them at, but in my opinion, Tom Shudic's Pinot noir and Chardonnay would be perfect for this experiment. - He writes here regularly, and his wines are GOOD at aging. Otherwise, Harry Petersen-Nadry (sp) of Chehalem wines in Oregon makes some magnificent wines that will age well, while being drinkable young. They may be a bit above your budget, however.

For fairly long term aging of a relatively iwine, try a Tannet from France. Maderan(sp) comes to mind.

"Tannat" and "Madiran".

Good suggestion. Not too expensive, and usually age-worthy. In fact I bought some Madiran a few years a ago with pretty much the same goal as the OP!

I was also thinking it might be good to get a decent (or half-decent) claret for which vintage charts and drinking advice is available - in Hugh Johnson's Pocket Book for example. Then it would be possible to compare personal opinion with the advice offered. That might push the $20 budget a bit though - not really sure about US prices.

"Steve Dannenbaum" wrote in news:Hpn0f.1598$WR2.208@fed1read03:

I would think that one could find a good Gigondas for around 20USD. They tend to need a bit of age so a young one would show the promise and down the road in 5-6 years (for most) start displaying some maturity. If one goes with a longer ageing wine the experiment becomes a life long one, not that there is anything wrong with that.

Another wine that should peak in around 5 years could be a decent Beaujolais Cru, e.g. Morgon or Moulin-à-Vent. It might even start going downhill in 5 years, depending on the wine and personal taste, but I guess that might be interesting to follow too.

I'd agree that 6 month intervals would be a more realistic framework for seeing development.

Where are you located? From Cox email I'd assume US, probably South. Where you are makes a big difference in availability.

And, of course, what do you like? Silly for us to suggest whites if you prefer reds, or big Cabernets if you like lighter reds.

As a gross generality, I think JCoulter's rec of a midsized Rhone is a brilliant example of a wine likely to develop over 5 years (and provide some pleasure the whole time). A Gigondas, St Joseph (if you prefer Syrah), Vacqueyras, or CdRV would be a good choice.

Depending on where you are, we might have good recs on CalCabs, CA Syrah, CalChards, Chianti, etc etc etc too.

Suggestions around $10 or less:

Columbia Crest Grand Estates Merlot (Washington) J. Vidal Fleurie Cotes de Ventoux (Rhone-style red) Perrin Reserve (Rhone red)

Shaun Eli

If interested in a moderately-priced red Bordeaux (a standard, internationally popular wine genre that might be used for such experiments), Château Larose-Trintaudon is one example that various sources mention. It is widely available in the US for circa $15-$20 retail in recent vintages. This wine is in the broad category of _Cru Bourgeois_ or "unclassified" but individual Bordeaux. It is "the largest estate in the Médoc" (Tom Stevenson, who also calls its quality consistently high) -- the one with the dark-red label. It also incidentally is one of the longest-cited wines on the Internet (through the wine newsgroup's creation as net.wines in February

Below (with apologies to the regulars) some re-postings. (Note the trouble with spelling "Trintaudon.")

Charles Hunt, 22-Apr-85: Newsgroups: net.wines

Right now, there are dozens of fine bordeaux available ... For small estates (called "petit chateaux"), there are many available for I'm a wine newbee and I'm very interested in seeing how one particular

Chandler, AZ from the looks of it.

Since what he wants is an under-$20 wine that'll show long-term improvement, I'd look to some of the lesser appellations of Europe. I'm surprised that you didn't mention satellite appellations of Bordeaux, Dale, as those ought to do the trick, too. Agreed about taste taking precendence, though.

Mark Lipton

"Since what he wants is an under-$20 wine that'll show long-term improvement, I'd look to some of the lesser appellations of Europe. I'm surprised that you didn't mention satellite appellations of Bordeaux, Dale, as those ought to do the trick, too. Agreed about taste taking precendence, though"

I don't think we're talking long-term improvement- he mentioned every 3 months, and we suggested stretching it to 6 months, so either less than

As you probably guess from my posts, probably close to 50% of the under$20 wines that I cellar are lesser/satellite Bordeaux. The reasons I didn't mention are threefold:

Larose-Trintaudon is indeed a good choice, can be a fine wine in good vintages.

Funnily, I eyed some this weekend. I visited a store north of me (not one of my regular stops) and noticed they had the '96 for $10.99. A very good vintage, and a bottle a couple years ago was drinking nicely. But.....I checked and indeed there was a Seagrams/Chateau and Estates import label. Nope. As a public service announcement, I'll repeat that US consumers -especially in Northeast- should be very wary of C & E imports of a certain age ('96-'98 in Bordeaux,adjust for release dates in other areas) that stores are offering for good-to-blowout prices. Apparently a lot were stored in unregulated warehouses, and they offered it up at auction in NJ last year. I bought a couple day before an ITB friend passed on a warning, and have tasted several others at offlines. Lots of cooked '97 Lagrange, '98 La Tour Figeac, '96 & '97 Gloria, etc out there.

"DaleW" wrote in news:1128516563.343366.82520 @g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

nicely.

With all the to do about vintage and storage, you raise a good point, one needs to be wary of importers, of course importers can be a good indicator as well. I find that Kermit Lynch is a good name and a lot of my bottles bear Stacole from S Florida (but then I live in Fla)

And I just noted that my Ch Gloria 2000 is a chateau and estates although instead of Seagrams it is Diageo which I assume means really nothing, but I assume that the wine is too young to have been affected.

"And I just noted that my Ch Gloria 2000 is a chateau and estates although instead of Seagrams it is Diageo which I assume means really nothing, but I assume that the wine is too young to have been affected"

Joseph, I think Seagrams sold C & E to Diageo in 2001 or 2002. It was Diageo selling off old Seagrams inventory. I wouldn't worry about your Glorias, because it was a hot selling vintage, and wines didn't linger like the '97s (my guess is you bought these a while ago). I don't think the issue was with shipping, or with really extreme temps (no evidence of leakage) but with wines sitting 4-6 years in probably 70-75° F temps.

I know both firms and I doubt that Clement Brown of C & E would countenance poor storage from they way he fussed over the merchandice here, perhaps he is no longer with them or was kept ignorant of storage conditions or the bean counters took over and had thermostats raised.

AS for my old friends at Stacole, they are the Wild West of the Wine World trying to beat anyone on price to merchants. In Maryland by law they had to go through wholesalers and they complied just barely. When I was running a small wholesaler who distributed DeGrazia and Shiverick wines I repped, Stacole was selling their wine through the same house, paying them X dollars a case for fees, storage and delivery; after complaining without success to the owner of the wholesaler & general manager(they made more money from my sales then Stacole's), the principal of Stacole at the time made me an offer that would have enriched me but done a disservice to my clients and the wholesaler. I refused. Eventually with some poor vintages and unsound purchases I made, Stacole was able to convince the owner to force me out by not paying my clients timely. I later found out that Stacole increased the money it gave to the liquor salesman & one of the managers to help him in sales in order to ease me out the door. I say this in admiration for their efforts--here was I, a part time hobbyist in their business competing with them successfully in their own backyard- it took them awhile but the put me in my place.

I am not going to speculate on Stacole's shipping and storage practices. I like my knee caps thank you. Seriously they are market-savvy and will do what the market demands, air conditioned warehouses and shipping in reefers. I doubt if they have much control of winery storage or what happens on the docks or customs. The better shippers like Hilledebrand & Danzas will do that but they charge more. Companies like Diego can and do consolidate storage but often a shipment is assembled on the docks. I did a few of those and its not easy.

Joseph, I think Seagrams sold C & E to Diageo in 2001 or 2002. It was Diageo selling off old Seagrams inventory. I wouldn't worry about your Glorias, because it was a hot selling vintage, and wines didn't linger like the '97s (my guess is you bought these a while ago). I don't think the issue was with shipping, or with really extreme temps (no evidence of leakage) but with wines sitting 4-6 years in probably 70-75 F temps.

"Joseph B. Rosenberg" in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:

N.B., the same caution that Dale raised in this thread about Seagram's Chateau and Estates using non-refrigerated warehousing was also current among wine professionals here on the Pacific coast in the late 1990s. They mentioned an unregulated warehouse nearby in Union City if I remember the location. Also that the problem was fixed in later years.

-- Max

That would be Western Carriers who do most of the shipping from the North East. Usually a shipment is only there for a few days --in cold weather or real hot weather it may sit or the importer has another load coming in he wants combined.

Steve,

It seems that you have received many good recs for your tasting project. If, as Mark L mentioned, you are in Chandler, AZ, then I'd second, or maybe it's third by now, the Ch Larose-Trintaudon, as it is available, usually, at PHX- Area Costcos, and should suit your purposes well - provided that you enjoy reds.

I would urge that you conduct this experiment with fairly strict adherence to a "control." Start each tasting session in exactly the same way, same serving temp, same glassware, and in the same company in a fairly closed situation i. e. for each bottle, open with the same companion(s), without benefit of food, in as neutral (free from food aromas, etc.) setting as is possible. Make the pours about the same, and take tons of notes. Write down every sensation, that you can identify. Personally, I'd strive for even keeping the time of day, period after food, etc. as close as I could, and DO NOT brush your teeth before you taste! Do not decant the wine before you pour (more later), but do linger over the glass of wine for some time, noting any changes, additions, subtractions, that you perceive as you taste.

Now, maybe for a starter, use two bottles for your first tasting. Open one, and decant (or carafe it) into a clean container and let it stand open for about 2 hours. Open the other bottle, and pour one glass of each. Taste one next to the other. Spend a lot of time, with the aromas, and note ALL of your observations in the A-B tasting. The decanted one should give you some slight indication of what is likely to develop as the time of the tasting progresses. It will also get you into the note-taking mold.

Personally, I'd do the tasting with each bottle, as suggested above, which should leave some of the bottle, when the pure "tasting" part is done. I'd then experience the remainder of each bottle with food, and add footnotes to the tasting. For this "part-II" phase, I would not adhere to strict uniformity, but would explore different food dishes with each sitting.

Just some thoughts, and remember to post follow-up TN's (tasting notes) of your observations. One caveat - make sure that the glassware that you use is scrupulously clean and free of any odor, detergent, and are dry (same for any decanting vessel). Most of all ENJOY!

Hunt

Here's another idea - take one of the bottles and divide its contents into several containers for long term low temperature storage. Pouring it into those little "one drink" containers they serve on airlines might be one way to do it - pour it to overflowing, and maybe cap it with nitrogen.

Then keep them in the coldest non-freezing part of your fridge, and open one of these along with each of your tastings as a control.

The idea is that this would give a hint as to what the wine would have tasted like if you could get into a time machine and subtract all the age to date. Take lots of notes on this too, because it is just speculation that it would work (and I'd be interested to know if it did).

Jose