IT

skrev i melding news: snipped-for-privacy@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Nothing wrong with that, really. It's an emerging market and the newbies have got to start somewhere. These names are widely mentioned and probably easy to remember. Furthermore, it's only recently that wine makers have got some sense of which varieties and which vineyards 'belong' to each other, I think. We'll probably see more differentiation if public awareness increases. But it is hilarious to imagine success films resulting in the uprooting of fine Cab.S. vines and planting of PN merely based on the whim and fancy of the day :-) Screaming Pinot, anyone? Anders

uprooting of

Pinot Grigio is ataggeringly popular too. I see no reason for it. Most of it is dreck.

"Anders Tørneskog" wrote in news:y93Zd.3345$ snipped-for-privacy@juliett.dax.net:

Hey i"worked" for Kruschov (sp?) after seeing the corn fields of Iowa he

Actually, Americans DO know there are other wines to choose from. Heck, there's Pinot Noir!

Most of it is Italian too, if the labels are to be trusted.

FWIW, that subject came up among a group of us over the holidays. I learned from a knowledgeable wine expert that most Italian Pinot Grigio is actually made from a different varietal. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the varietal, but I can find out. Michael Pronay probably knows too.

Tom S

That does actually happen - but not quite in that way. The existing vines are usually grafted over to the "varietal du jour", leaving the rootstock intact.

In the early 1980s, there was a lot of grafting over of White Riesling to Pinot Noir in Santa Barbara County (a good thing IMO). A couple of years ago one of the local growers grafted over a *wonderful* Chardonnay vineyard to Pinot Grigio (a bad thing IMO, although I do like Pinot Grigio).

I've also seen more than one varietal per trunk, trained on separate sets of wires: Chardonnay on the top cordon; Riesling on the lower.

Tom S

Not to mention all the old vine Zin grafted over to Chardonnay in that same era. For all that I dislike White Zin, I appreciate how many great vineyards it saved until the red Zin revival of the '90s.

That's an interesting idea, and why not after all? They're all sort of squatters on the v. labrusca rootstock anyway. ;-)

Mark Lipton

Dang, I never thought I'd be saying this, but I agree with you 100%. While I have certainly NOT tasted all the Pinot Gris/Grigio produced, I have only found one, that I could really like - King Estate Reserve, and even it, in some years, isn't worth the effort, or price. For my palette, there are too many great whites out there from all around the globe, to waste my wine-time on most of the PG that I've sampled.

As for the American buying habits, I attribute it more to the need to feel part of a "group," requiring any "fad" to define what they like/dislike. I just think back to the ABC movement (the "c" being either Chard, or Cab - take your pick). So many turned their back(s) on two great varietals, just because it was percieved as fashionable.

Hunt

Sure that we are talking pinot grigio/pinot gris? Haven't heard of that grape being something else. Cabernet franc often is carmenère, and tocai friulano is sauvignonasse (sauvignon vert/ gris?), and trebbiano is ugni blanc, but that's it, more or less. Oh yeah, cannonau is tempranillo, iirc.

M.

Are you not thinking of Carmenet? I thought Carmenère was a different varietal altogether, although also grown, sometimes, in Bordeaux.

Timothy Hartley

No.

Yes. But many plantings of what was believed to be cabernet franc in Italy, in fact are carmenère.

There is the story of Maurizio Zanella (Ca' del Bosco) having ordered plantings in Italy and in France. When the vines grew older, he realized that they were two different varieties. Both breeders heavily insisted that their plantings were the real thing. So an agreement was reached to have the "pope" of modern ampelography, Pierre Galet (Université de Montpelier), as an arbiter. He identified the Italian verison of cabernet franc as carmenère.

M.

Netiher have I

In the Veneto, most of the time.

OK, that's just a synonym, same grape.

No, cannonau is grenache. But you knew that, you just got sidetracked...

Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France email link

Are we talking being something else — difficult to achieve — or being called or known as something else? Tom Stevenson gives the following alternative synonyms in addition to the well known Tokay/Tokai chestnuts: Auvernat gris, Auxerrois gris,Auxois Fauvet, Fromentot, Grauerburgunder, Grauklevner, Grauer Monch, Greyfriar, Grey pinot, Gris cordelier, Malmsey, Malvagia, Malvasia, Malwisie, Monemrasia, Pinot beurot, Rulander and Rulonski - most of which I suspect none of us have ever seen before but there they are for our edification and to annoy any lurking trolls.

Timothy Hartley

Re Pinot Grigio--Colli Orientali del Friuli is the best outside of Alsace-- Producers:Ca'Ronesca, Volpe Pasini(Zuc di Volpe), Marco Felluga, Livio Felluga.

Expect to pay chardonnay price. There's a ton of plonk out there from other parts of Friuli, the Veneto and Trentino-Alto Adige(where it may be labeled Rulander)

"joseph b. rosenberg" skrev i melding news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com...

But, there's also a ton of not so plonk of Ruländer made in Germany, especially in Baden, but also in Pfalz, even Nahe and Rheingau. Georg Breuer did one 2002 that received 96 points on the restrictive Wein-Plus ratings. Anders

If you refer back to Tom's original statement, it's pretty clear that they're talking about the former, which involves nothing more difficult than misidentification of a cultivar.

In fact, in reference to your other post regarding Carmenère being mislabeled as Cab Franc, the same thing happened in Chile, where it was discovered that major plantings of "Merlot" were in fact Carmenère. In California within the past decade, most plantings of Roussanne were found to be Viognier.

It's probably easier than we realize for this to happen. If the vines are sold as cuttings, there may not be much visible for identification purposes, so the customer is probably relying on the good will and competence of the vendor for proper identification. If either of those conditions fails to hold, you've got a problem.

Mark Lipton

Joe,

Thanks. I'll try and score a bottle, or two and give it a go. As I have been exposed to far more of the plonk, than serious wine, this is not a varietal that I seek out in hopes of finding a good one. Your recommendation is greatly appreciated.

Hunt

Thanks Anders. I had not thought about German producers. Must try!

Hunt

Thanks for the clarification. It is the assertion that black is white with which I was having difficulty! I still think that to a competent grower differences in date of flowering, leaf bud shape, leaf shape, bunch form, colour, yield, taste, smell, tannin level etc would have been a give away.

We have all seen the level of sophistication of the good growers — let alone the great — who select the wine to go with food not by the area or the appellation or even the vineyard but by the year of that vineyard. I find it difficult to believe that such people planted the wrong varietal and went on believing that they had planted the right one.

I well remember the anger of Régis Lavau at Ch. Bernateau when the traiteur, who was cooking for English members of the Jurade whom M. & Mmme Lavau were entertaining with their customary generosity, had not told him what he was serving to eat and M. Lavau was therefore unable to choose which vintages he was going to serve with which course. To suggest that somebody like that would not know the difference between Carmenère and Bouchet - even as newly planted vine, let alone in growth, in flower, in grape, in cuve, in bottle, on the nose or in the mouth - is laughable.

I would have expected Italian growers to be nearly as competent - even allowing for my bias towards the Jurisdiction.

Timothy Hartley