Mouton Notes 1970 - 1995

Jan 22, 2004 15 Replies

These are notes from a Commanderie de Bordeaux dinner in Vancouver on January



20, 2004 that featured and excellent vertical of Ch. Mouton Rothschild.

The reception wine was Louis Roederer Brut Premier, a pleasant champers that didn't get in the way of the conversation.



With Napoleon of Dungeness crab, avocado and black truffle:


1999 Ch. Brown - some decent crisp lemon notes on the nose and pretty decent concentration of flavour on palate. I heard others being dismissive of this modest wine, but personally, I enjoyed it, particularly with the food. Typically 2:1 Sauvignon Blanc to Semillon.

The following notes are all Mouton:



With red Kurri squash ravioli in lemon butter sauce and shaved reggiano:


1993 - very good nose with toasted bread and cedar. Medium bodied wine, good flavour concentration, ample but soft tannins, medium length, pleasant rather than exceptional, as one would expect for this vintage.


1995 - Very closed on the nose, although dedicated swirling did awaken a semblance of ripish fruit and a hint of coffee. The wine showed much more concentration on palate and greater length than had the 1993, but it is at present saddled with high but bearable levels of tannin that seem to suddenly clamp down at the end. Of the two wines, I actually preferred the 1993 for current drinking.



With roasted breast of baby pheasant :


1985 - Although I neglected to buy much 1985 Bordeaux at all, concentrating on the surrounding bigger, longer lasting vintages, this vintage has unfailingly offered great drinking experiences whenever I have had the good fortune to taste it. The 85 Montrose is very good, and I thought the Cos d'Estournel to be one of the best vintages of that wine at a vertical tasting some time ago. In that context, this Mouton was a bit of a let-down. It had a very good nose, the best part of the wine in my opinion, with elements of spiced vanilla and fruit, with a fair bit of complexity. In the mouth it was medium bodied, now at peak and quite elegant, but perhaps a bit tart at the end. It will never get any better.


1989 - Cedar and vanilla nose, medium body, an elegant middle of the road sort of claret, and my second favourite of this flight. Some bottles were slightly corked, the first sign of this flaw which was to be repeated over the ensuing flights. In every case, as a result of carefully planned pouring, each table had representatives from each of the 3 bottles, so we always had the opportunity to taste wine form a good one.


1990 - reported by Parker to be a "hard, lean, austere, tannic style of Mouton" (but his note is now a few years old), we found this to be anything but. Those of us that had done the research were prepared for a wine that would rival the
1975s when young, but found instead a wine that showed great clarity of fruit in the nose, the best of this flight, and surprisingly evolved edges. It had a sweet entry and in the middle had more fruit than either the 85 or 89. Was it a failure in terms of the excellent 1990 vintage? Arguably so, but we were inclined to be more generous.

With herbed lamb rib eye in puff pastry:


1982 - this wine has caused me concern over the last few years. Like the 1977 Grahams Port, I kept seeing lavish praise for it in the reviews of others, and whenever I tasted it (every year or two) I found it to be if not closed, then definitely performing below the anticipated level. Well there is good news and bad news. The bottle we tasted was the best bottle I have tasted in many years; the wine is out of the woods. The bad news - for me (and others) this is neither a 100 point nor 100 year wine. Do not mistake me - it is very, very good, it just isn't as good as it gets and I have doubts about how long it will remain on plateau. It is no longer as dark as it used to be (who among us could say different?), and it showed great depth in the nose, with mineral, cedar, and a slightly plummy fruit. It is still young in the mouth with fantastic concentration, and an exceptionally long finish. It was without doubt the best Mouton in well over a decade, but nonetheless, for me anyway, if one must reduce the experience to points, it would be a high 90s certainly, but not a perfect wine.


1986 - this wine also garnered a perfect score, and in this case I agree. A huge, somewhat monolithic wine with a closed nose you had to work at, very tight in the mouth, but with a sweet entry followed swiftly by considerable tannins that were in balance with the levels of fruit. The magic of this wine is certainly the balance - there is no area that one can pick at and honestly characterize as containing anything approaching a flaw, nor even a shortcoming. It is all there, the elements of a great wine - they just need time to settle out.


1988 - they had to put something with the other two, and one knew that whatever won that spot would suffer in comparison. This wine (again, a slightly corked bottle was eliminated for the purpose of my note-taking) showed a vanilla and currant nose. It is still tannic, but the fruit is bright at this point. It shows indications of getting lean, which make me worry that the fruit is starting to decline - the wine should be fine for another 5 years, but if the fruit starts dropping seriously, that will limit enjoyment of it. There was a lot (far too much in this recent a vintage) of bottle variation here.

Finally, the geriatric set, with a Tome de chevre tart:


1970 - this was very kindly donated by the leader of the group, and I heard some voicing concerns as to whether it might be over the proverbial hill. I have had poor bottles of 1970, and very good bottles, so variability is always a factor. As it turned out, the wine was excellent - one of the best bottles I've tasted in years. Tobacco, cedar and tea nose, the edges getting fairly pale. The wine started sweet on entry and that note followed through to the commendably long finish - the fact that the sweetness was still present right to the end added a very important dimension to the wine, for me, anyway. Lovely claret, and my second favourite of the night after the 1982, and the 1986 which I elevate to it's own level, both because of quality and the fact that it really doesn't show as well right now as it will in the future.


1975 - I have also had very nice bottles of this vintage, and wondered whether it might not be better than the 1970 on this occasion. Pleasant mature nose with some spice and cocoa, the tannins if the vintage present but manageable, and the fruit sufficient unto the task. A very good bottle (better than the Imperial I had before Christmas, which showed less fruit and more terminal acidity), but not up to the 1970, which remained my favourite of this flight.


1983 - ahh - the first nose that I'd really call lead pencil. Some sweetness on entry, but the tannins are a tad hard and the wine 'narrows' as you get to the end, becoming tighter and leaner, ending with a disturbing amount of acidity, stemmy and out of balance. Poor showing in a good vintage.


1999 Ch. Rayne Vigneau - the first thing that struck me was that this was really showing a lot of colour - far more than the 2001, which is quite pale in comparison. I do not know what accounts for this accelerated darkening. Typical coconutty citrus nose, without any great amount of Botrytis. Pleasant but not exceptional wine.



Finally, a few comments on Mouton. I posed a serious question to Albert Givton, a fellow member with extensive experience and always ready to offer his opinion. I asked if he thought that they had made a mistake in 1973 when they elevated Mouton to first growth status. His short answer was that Mouton occasionally hit the heights expected of any wine that has first growth aspirations, but that it had a lot of 'misses' as well. He offered that Mouton is the only first growth that should not be bought en primeur, because you never know what you will be getting - better to pay 40% more having tasted the wine, and avoid the all too frequent underachiever vintages.



The question was thrown out to the membership at large and only a half dozen people (I was not among them) felt that Mouton was rightfully a first growth based on this survey of the best vintages of the last 3 decades.



Mouton has excellent terroir, located beside Lafite, but they have higher crop levels, and include far more of the fruit (that is, there is less selection of inferior fruit which would go into a second label) than the other first growths



- 80% of what is harvested, as opposed to perhaps half that for Lafite and Latour, goes into the grand vin. They have a marvellous gimmick, with their annual artist's label, and all the makings are there to perform at the top level, yet they more often perform as a 1 ½ growth, if you will, half a rung below the firsts and half a rung above the seconds. And so I expect it will remain, for there is surely no financial incentive for them to alter anything they are currently doing. In any case, a fascinating tasting indeed!



Your notes on Mouton are interesting. The most recent I have is 1982. Of the older vintages, I still have a case of the 1975 and have not even opened it yet. I still have 15 bottles of the 1970. I have found the

1970 to be very full and consistent. I am guessing it will last many more years. I place the 70 Latour ahead of the 70 Mouton, but(with the exception of Petrus) I would place the other 70 first growths lower - much lower in the case of Margaux. I have a single remaining bottle of the 1966 Mouton. It probably still is holding well, but has been ready a long time. The best I remember, the 1966 was a somewhat more dry style than the 1970. I only have 2 bottles of the 1961. I suspect they are better than the 1970, but I have not made a direct comparison. In any event, I am only drinking what Mouton I have slowly. There are other 1970's that need drinking first.

Of course Mouton can on occasion equal or exceed all of the other first growths. I need only mention the 1945 when it upstages Latour, as great as the 1945 Latour is. Of course I have no opinion of vintages since the

1982.

Salut/Hi Bill Spohn,

Once again, thanks a million for your fascinating notes. I wish....

le/on 22 Jan 2004 00:34:34 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

I've one comment and one question.

I've not been lucky (or wealthy) enough to drink that many 1st growths, but I have to say that at a parallel tasting of Lafite and Mouton '59 in about

1980, the Mouton shone compared to the Lafite and was arguably the best red wine I've ever drunk (and I'm a Burgundy man!).

My question. If you consider the classification as being qualitative (instead of a reflection of consistent market price as originally drawn up in '55), which Chateaux _would_ merit being 1st growth over - say - the last

50 years? Surely not Margaux, which went through a VERY lean patch up until relatively recently. And is Lafite _really_ that consistent?

concentrating on

considerable

I tasted several of the 80s Moutons recently and found them all disappointing.

I did not have the 86. I found the 82 to be good, but nothing great, very reserved (a second bottle, probably cooked, was somewhat pruney). The 81 should be drunk up, it has a barnyard nose and not much fruit but is still holding on. The 83 and 84 both had a nice nose, but the 84 is on thin ice. Neither wine was anything to get excited about.

Not much to the 1987 or 1988 either. The 1985, 1989 and 1990 were all nice wines, more lush and elegant than the others, great bouquet, but missing fruit and power. Actually, I liked the 1990 the best -- the wine that Parker loves to hate.

Bill Great notes.

82, Mouton like Lascases 82 Lascases has never impressed, despite the 100 from RP. Always rather mean with fruit lessening over the years.I have now sold all my 82 Lascases at a good price and bought 2001 Burgundy.

Back OT, I had 70 Mouton and 70 Latour on my 40th. birthday, some years ago :-(

The Latour was stunning, portlike in many ways and so long. The Mouton was austere and a bit like the 82 Lascases.

John

The 70 Latour is one of my all time favourite wines. It is almost ready to drink now, after almost 35 years in bottle.........

Latour is certainly a paragon of excellence and consistency, but IMHO Haut-Brion is arguably more consistent than even Latour, though perhaps a bit less impressive on average.

Yes, it's always a fun parlor game, and guaranteed to generate discussion if not outright dispute.

What say you of La Mission, Bill? Also, if we take the last two decades as our timeline (though I suspect you're using something more like 1970-1990 as yours) I think that Lynch-Bages has been every bit as good as Pichon Lalande, but that just may reflect my biases in the Médoc...

Fun stuff, Bill (and interesting notes on the Moutons)!

Mark Lipton

In the Good Old Days, when LMHB was under the Woltners, it would outperform Haut Brion in many vintages - anyone who has ever tasted the magnificent 1975 could never doubt the quality.

Call it the cynical lawyer in me, but when LMHB was bought by the Dillons and united under the same management, we entered an era in which (IMnot so HO) LMHB will never be ALLOWED to surpass Haut Brion, again.

Sure, in specific vintages some people may prefer LMHB to HB, but in general the Grand Vin will remain the Grand Vin, and may expect competition only from the other first growths.

Which for anyone that has tasted the great vintages of La Mission made under the Woltners, is really rather sad.....1929, 1955, 1959, 1975 - a remarkable track record.

I suppose you could argue from the 89 and 2000 that I am wrong, but then Haut Brion made wines arguably as good in those vintages too.

Bill, thanks for the notes.

I don't drink a lot of first-growths, so take my opinions with a grain of salt. But I'd argue against Mouton really deserving first-growth status - even though I've quite liked some (and my experience with the '82 Mouton was that it was great, btw -one of the best wines I'd ever had). But to me the true test is the so-so vintages. Mouton from '94, '97 & '99, for instance, did not impress me as much as Lafites, Haut-Brions, or Latours from same vintages (don't think I've had all 4 in any vintage, but 3 in each- by Margaux experience is very limited and in other vintages).

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

instance, did not impress me>as>much as Lafites, Haut-Brions, or Latours from same vintages

For fun (or what passes for it around here) we did a tasting of everything but Petrus in 1980 and 1984 vintages - because they were available at a low price and to see exactly what you mention - Mouton does not excel in poor vintages

Or mediocre. Only the '97 of the ones I mentiond might qualify as poor (and I think '97 is more mediocre, far better than say '92 or '91). '94 & '99 aren't poor vintages to my tastes. It's very interesting that almost every example of a great Mouton cited is from a universally accepted very goof to excellent vintage. Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

I always felt that Lynch Bages deserved a higher classification status but it's prices reflect a higher classification of late so perhaps it's moved up by consumer demand. Bi!!

Hi Dale What's a goof vintage? ;-) Anders

Wonderful notes as always. May I ask your thoughts on the longevity of the 1982 Mouton? I purchased a bottle approx 6 years ago (pre-mortgage....sigh) and I think that I've stored it reasonably well. Based on your doubts as to how long it will remain on its plateau, would you advise drinking it at the next suitable special occasion or would you hold it for a while longer? Similarly I have one bottle of Margaux 1982 and Lafite 1982, both of which I have been advised will need more time. In an ideal world sufficient quantities of the wines in question would enable a try it and see approach. Unfortunately in my case, these days extravagance is an item I can barely spell let afford to indulge in :)

Thanks once again.

Alex Hayne

concentrating on

considerable

You could leave it another 10 years with no problem, Alex. I just don't think it is a 100 year wine as Parker predicts.

Can I put a vote in for Ch Lafleur? A friend served me the 1985 recently and it was wonderful; nowhere near being embarrassed by the 1947 Margaux served at the same dinner.

Joel

Join the Discussion

Have something to add? Share your thoughts — no account required.

Didn't find your answer?

Ask the community — no account required