Re: Frustrated by Burgundies, but fighting back

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (radishpicker) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com:

The prices are good, but I for one am not a huge fan of Fevre. His wines just don't stact up against Drouhin for instance or for that matter some of the Chablis that ABC liquor sells on what I believe is its own label.

"radishpicker" in news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...

Some good stuff if the vintage is good (I don't know). Note that Dujac _Fils et Pere_ is the son's recent operation and my sampling of those from last year or two showed very differently from the established (glorious) Dujac house so don't confuse them.

The regular Dujac village wines, though hardly cheap, can still be good values. Cultivate a merchant. These were wonderful wines in 2001, though up in price for various coincidental reasons.

No, you can get Bourgognes Rouges for $20 or village wines like Beaune or G-C for $30-40 that contain "the essence" of good Burgundy if you get good ones from good years. Lafarge B-R's have delivered very well in the last decade. I believe I listed some further past examplesnot long ago, search the archives re good-value Burgundies.

Very creditably product, I buy it too. Different style, distinct spicy (clove?) wood character.

Arggh! Save your soul, look beyond point ratings. "As good of a point rating as" hints at near-perdition already, you are taking the numbers much more seriously than does any Burgundy fan I know. None of them would compare point scales of US vs. French pinots -- that misses everything. The sorts of US journalists known for emphasizing (and introducing) point ratings are taken the least seriously among experienced Burgundy lovers I know (in various countries). (Some consumers in the US seem stubbornly, resolutely unaware of this reality.) Invest a little money in standard Burgundy books by Coates and Remington Norman (amazon.com lists them for example) or even Stevenson's "New Sotheby" general wine encyclopedia, US $30 or so, and come up to speed in background information and get to know your merchant and then leave the "points" for nouveau Bordeaux stockpilers and the unfortunates who actually say things to each other like "life is too short to drink wines rated under 90 points."

I'm assuming at $23 this is the Saintsbury Carneros (more expensive than the Garnet, less than the Reserve or Brown Ranch)? Usually one of my favorite CA pinots, though haven't bought last couple vintages. Different than a Burg, though not in the mode of a RRV PN. I like it, but it's on the level of a good Bourgogne, not the equivalent of a $50 1er cru. What vintages are those wines? For current releases (2000/2001) the Lafarge Bourgogne seems high/reasonable, but the other Lafarges (VS and 1er Cru) seem unreasonablely high. Anyway, I'd try the Lafarge and Bachelet generic Bourgognes (actually, the Bachelet CdNuitsVillages is usually a step up for maybe $2 more) to see if you like the style. You aren't going to get profound Burgundy at $20, but you can see if the style appeals to you.

For years Fèvre was the king of oaky Chablis, but new-oak use seems to have moderated. 2002 has a good rep, though I've only tasted a few (Brocard, Savary, Picq) but so far so good.

Good luck, report back! Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Regrettably, I have to disagree with that as a flat statement, Dale. I recently spent ~$45US for a 1999 Volnay 1er cru on the recommendation of a shop proprietor. Any vintage of Saintsbury Pinot Noir would have absolutely _buried_ that Burg. :^(

The same shop owner referred me to the 2001 Chorey Côte de Beaune from Domaine Tollot-Beaut ($22US). Now _this_ was more like it! Nice ripe, bright fruit at the fore, in a lighter style made for early consumption - but opening to definite Burgundian character over the course of hours. This was _much_ better than the aforementioned Volnay - especially at _half_ the price!

Tom S

Dale, the prices that I have found are for 2002 futures. I made this post because the prices seemed a bit high to me, even for Burgundies which have a reputation of being sort of expensive. Not that I have any experience here, but I question the value. I recently bought 2001 Cos de Estournel for $51 which I expect to be a blockbuster of a wine, and I just don't know if the Burgundies, which are even more expensive, will have any where near the value for the buck. I guess the 2002 vintage expectations are driving prices way up?

Andy

For current releases (2000/2001) the Lafarge

Oh, you're right, badly phrased- I can come up with plenty of bad $50 1ers (or $100 Grand Crus - for that matter a '90 Vogue moose that must run $300+ was pretty disappointing). What I meant was that the Saintsbury Carneros - a wine I like- is more on the level of a good Bourgogne or village level wine (which are priced more or less equivalently) and could not compete with a GOOD $50 1er cru (or a top village wine like a Roumier or Mugnier Chambolle). Nor should it. That's why they have the Reserve and the Brown Ranch. Have you had either in recent vintages? The Brown has always been a bit beyond my normal budget, but a good splurge. The Reseve was a fave of mine for several years - the 1995 in particular- but the disappointing '98 soured me a bit. Have you (or anyone else) tried the more recent Reserves?

Who was the maker of the Volnay- in 1999 I would have thought almost anyone could do ok?

Glad to hear Tollot-Beaut is getting back on form. A former favorite, the T-B Choreys in late 90s were mostly disappointing. Will keep an eye open for the

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

hello, I am new on this newsgroup. Perhaps, I am not welcome, because I am Burgundian and I live in Beaune in the beautiful medium of the vines and the wine.

Excuse me for my english!!!

I am surprised by what you say on the wines of Burgundy, but I am not astonished either.

I am a wine merchant, but I sell only wines of properties, after the rigorously selected assets. I am completely convinced that half of the Burgundian wine growers do not deserve to have such a soil, that is that of the gold coast.

But there are exceptions.

I want to change this image of Burgundy, which you have in the head, and I assure you that one can find wines of a great purity; in red wine and in white wine. There is at all the prices. I will be able to give you some references and their prices.

Cordially

Laurent

snipped-for-privacy@wanadoo.fr

"radishpicker" a écrit dans le message de news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com...

I've had the Reserve, but not recently. I got a bottle of the Brown Ranch for a gift a year or so ago. Seemed like laying it down was the right thing to do, so I did.

It was the D'Angerville. Quite disappointing. There was no "there" there. :^(

I bought a third bottle, too. The vintage isn't printed on my receipt, but I think it was 2001 Girardin Santenay ($24US). At first it didn't impress me much. Seemed tannic and lacking fruit. After several hours it finally opened up and turned out to be pretty good. A bit weightier than the Chorey and more likely to be ageworthy.

Tom S

Someone from the heartland of Burgundy should surely be welcome here. :^)

It's a _lot_ better than my French!

I agree 100% with that, but I actually believe the vintners are worse than the growers.

I'm interested in _those_.

You're getting close to advertisement with that. This is a _non_commercial newsgroup. I want to hear about good wines, but actually promoting and/or advertising them is not permitted here. Your website URL is enough. Those who are interested will contact you there.

Thanks in advance.

Tom S

a gift a year or so ago. Seemed like laying it down was the right thing

Nice gift :)

Was this the multi-vineyard 1er, or a single 1er Cru? I can't believe it's the Clos des Ducs, which I found AMAZING in '99. I have 2 bottles of the generic '99 1er Cru fromCalvert Woodley sale, but put them away. My guess was like many '99s they might be closed now. I know the '95 shut down far about year or two after release (3-4 after vintage) and just reopened in last year or so. D'Angerville is a top producer, usually dependable.

I don't have much Santenay experience. But Girardin usually puts out a solid product.

thanks,

Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

Laurent, thank you for your offer to help educate me on Burgundy. I think that you may have misunderstood the main point of my posts: I have a perception that some Burgundies are outstanding, and I simply want to make sure that I find them rather than the exceptions.

Andy

I could be mistaken, but I _think_ it was a multi-vineyard wine. I didn't keep the label or any notes. I was doing well to still have the receipt!

Tom S

You're getting close to advertisement with that. This is a _non_commercial

Dont be afraid, i am not on this newsgroup to promote my selection of wines, even if I could be interested to have impassioned american burgundy wine customers. Accept my excuses.

I think, this newsgroup is very interesting for me because i can divide with you my experience in burgundy wines and my relations with burgundian wine makers. I know them well because I work with them. And i know their wines. So, if you need opinions, I am at the disposal of this newsgroup.

Thanks for your attention

Sincerely

Laurent

"Tom S" a écrit dans le message de news: b42dc.47578$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...

_non_commercial