Sancerre and terroir

"Tom S" wrote in news:kIyhc.53881$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com:

There is very little in the way of white wine that can imitate a Chablis. I would like to ascribe most of the wet pebbles taste to terroir but I could be wrong it has happened.

I've tasted - no, actually more _smelled_, what you are referring to, but have not found it to be universally present in Chablis, or completely absent in Chardonnay from other areas.

Are we confusing terroir with soil again? I'm still somewhat confused about the distinction. I'd always assumed that terroir was pretty much the same as terre - but my French is virtually nonexistent, and recently the distinction was pointed out to me here.

As a citizen of the USA, I'm quite ingrained with the concept of separation of powers, so viewing soil, climate and clone (as well as perhaps indigenous microbiological characteristics) all separately is quite comfortable to me - much moreso than mixing those properties all together and calling it "terroir". That may be a bit metaphorical, but I find it useful.

Tom S

This was the first example that came to my mind, too. I have had other non- (or lightly) oaked, non-ML chardonnays from NZ, Oregon and CA, but none have come close to capturing the essence of what makes Chablis so special and unique.

Mark Lipton

I'd venture that it has more to do in this particular case with the fact that Jolivet is a very 'modern' or 'New World style' producer. His Sancerre's stylistically and winemaking methodology are closer to NZ than most of his peers.

The other difficulty is that Sauvignon Blanc (like Cabernet Sauvignon) is extremely good at retaining its varietal characteristics no matter what you to do it. If you eat a SB grape, you will instantly know it's Sauvignon Blanc. This is in total contrast to PN or Chardonnay which are more of a blank slate, a 'winemaker's' grape if you will. The main difference, like with Cab, is in the profile of a somewhat underripe Sauvignon Blanc (Loire, usually the grassy, goosberry, etc. profile) and the usually riper NZ version (bigger fruit, grapefruit, citrus, etc.)

Peter

Unfortunately Peter, several California wineries have been able to remove all traces of varietal characteristics with their 100% malolactic fermentation and new oak. It has less flavor than their Chardonnays. Chalk Hill is the main contender in this group.

Tom S. wrote: "the typical "cat piss" aroma"

No no no! Not "cat piss!" Blackcurrant bud!

silly you.

Ok, I'm kidding. We all know what it smells like. But I have been schooled more than once that this distinct aroma is "blackcurrant bud."

emily (winemonger)

I can assure you that cat piss is a lot easier reference to find than blackcurrant buds - and I don't even _have_ a cat! I don't think I've ever seen blackcurrants, much less their buds.

Tom S

That's because Sauvignon Blanc at full ripeness simply doesn't have the intensity of ripe Chardonnay. That's why it was dubbed many years ago as "the poor man's Chardonnay".

Also, fully ripe SB tastes and smells very little of what you perceive as "varietal" (you know - that grassy, cat piss aroma).

Tom S

I agree with that assessment of Chardonnay, which is one of the things that I find makes it the most fun of any varietal to vinify. I disagree with that with respect to Pinot Noir (and other reds) however. Red wines are mostly made in the vineyard.

Tom S

I'm surprised you would say tht about Pinot Noir. Just my opinion, but all versions to me seem to retain a bacis cherry and spicy flavor. Although they seem to vary more in body more than any other varietal (eg Rully vs. Gevrey Chambertin).

Tom Schellberg

Salut/Hi Tom S,

le/on Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:04:00 GMT, tu disais/you said:-

What a fascinating question. Thanks for asking.

I'm saying nothing, (My brother, who lurks here from time to time, would no doubt roar with laughter and tell you that's a first!). and reading everyone's comments.

(excuse if this is a repeat, my newsreader seems to not have posted several replies to several threads over last day)

I really don't want to get into a drawn-out terroir discussion, I've been in too many of those. But I'll just say that TO ME (I'm not defining for a dictionary) terroir is the sense of place one gets from a wine. I would never say that Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc has no terroir, for to me the terroir can encompass the distinct flavors of the fruit. Terroir comes from a variety of factors, not just soil.

You think "good" white winemakers obliterate terroir? Then I'll take the wines of Helmut Dönnhoff, Michel Niellon, FX Pichler, Cotat, Pelle, etc.; you can take the good winemakers :) Dale

Dale Williams Drop "damnspam" to reply

I suppose that's more accurate. I suppose the winemaking procedure is fairly similar for PN, the issue being the finicky grapes in the vineyard. What I was trying to get at was Pinot Noir's ability to express terroir, much more than say Cabernet or Sauvignon Blanc.

Hi, Ian - Your silence speaks volumes!

Tom S

This wine (the 2003) didn't display any trace of overripeness. The varietal grassiness characteristic of SB picked before full maturity was there, as was the very pale color and modest alcohol (12½%).

Perhaps I didn't phrase that quite as well as I might have. Some winemakers settle the solids out of the juice prior to fermentation and ferment only the clear liquid; others ferment everything that comes through the press. The difference in style between wines made by the former and the latter methods is very distinct. The latter method produces less pure and sometimes downright awful wines.

There is an in-between style that includes the _light_ solids in the fermentation and discards the heavy solids. Perhaps this method of "walking the fence" is responsible for what you might regard as "character", "complexity" or "terroir" in the finished wine. Certainly, it isn't as risky.

Personally, I prefer to use the cleanest juice I can get. It's a lot safer, and renders a wine that is expressive of almost solely fruit and whatever oak I choose to impart.

Tom S

Paso Robles Cabernet certainly smells and tastes different (to me, anyway) from Napa Cabernet.

I'll concede that Pinot Noir does seem to reflect regional differences a bit more obviously, however.

Tom S